Politics All Things Trump

[Mordoror]

I read this on another site regarding this topic and seemed right over the target, so I thought I'd share.

And this is conveniently forgetting that they lost 11K personal fighting ISIS as askaris for US and Western forces that didn't wanted to have boots on the ground.
Hypocrisy goes both ways

 

[Chazman]

And this is conveniently forgetting that they lost 11K personal fighting ISIS as askaris for US and Western forces that didn't wanted to have boots on the ground.
Hypocrisy goes both ways

You make it sound as if the US "deployed" the Kurds from their safe homes in Kansas to fight ISIS.

The Kurds were fighting for their lives in their own homes and were getting slaughtered until the US stepped in and helped them defeat a common enemy, ISIS.

The Kurds, or at least the Syrian Kurds have already negotiated a deal with Assad. So, let the Syrians, Russians, Turks and Iranians sort this out. No need to hand this war to the next generation of American lads.

 

[Mordoror]

You make it sound as if the US "deployed" the Kurds from their safe homes in Kansas to fight ISIS.

The Kurds were fighting for their lives in their own homes and were getting slaughtered until the US stepped in and helped them defeat a common enemy, ISIS.

The Kurds, or at least the Syrian Kurds have already negotiated a deal with Assad. So, let the Syrians, Russians, Turks and Iranians sort this out. No need to hand this war to the next generation of American lads.

Partly yes, partly no
Raqqa for example was not a target for the kurd, yet they were pushed by us to operate against that city

 

[Chazman]

Interesting take from CDR Salamander:

Turkey was not so interested in fighting the Islamic State per se ... but they are interested in what they see as a real threat to their national security - Kurds. Turkey is all about Turkey. Everyone knows that. We seem to misread that on a regular basis, but there it is.

OK, we've reviewed the history here. What about today?

The Trump Administration’s decision to withdraw from the northern part of Syria was announced and executed in an exceptionally clunky method. Plenty of blame there for both the civilian and military sides of the house – but it is defendable for a host of reasons.

First of all, if you don’t understand the connection between the Marxist YPG and PKK, then sit down and be quiet.

Second, if you don’t know the difference between Syrian and Iraqi Kurds or the geography of the area, sit down and be quiet longer.

Third, if you are real excited – the YPG has international brigades. Grab your passport and good luck.

For the adults in the room, you have to look at options.

We have choices, none of which are ideal but guess what? Nothing has been ideal in that part of the world since recorded time.

Look at why we put boots on the ground in Syria to start with. Do you remember what ISIS was doing in their caliphate? Catch up here if you need to.

We needed to remove them from Iraq and chase them down to their last sanctuaries in Syria. We smartly decided to use the method that works well in that area, find the enemy of your enemy and make them your friend. We did that, and together we accomplished the end state we both wanted.

The Islamic State’s Operational Center of Gravity has been defeated; their holding of large swaths of territory in Syria and Iraq. Their Strategic Center of Gravity, their religious justification for existing, can only be defeated by the Islamic world. We are, at best, a supporting entity there.

Of course ISIS is also a terrorist organization and in that mode it can continue for decades. A different challenge.

Of course there are prisons full of ISIS detainees in Syria who are either stateless or their nations of origin, like Germany, will not take them back. In that part of the world in similar conflicts, that was not a problem … and you know why. Tertiary issue.

So, what are our options? None are good, but we have options.

1. Garrison N. Syria until the crack of doom and hope that nothing stupid will take place that will lead to a wider conflict with the resident population or worse, Turkey, Russia, or Iran over a part of the world we have no ethnic, economic, historical, or religious reason to have any concern over.

2. Have a small garrison deep in the sovereign territory of a nation whose permission we don’t have to be there until the locals come to an arrangement on their own that we are not a part of, and overnight everyone has become an antibody to our foreign presence forcing a humiliating withdraw through … where exactly? Has no one this century read Xenophon?

3. Make a decision that with the major threat gone, the Islamic State’s Caliphate, that we should go home on our terms and our timetable before we get caught up in some long simmering local conflict that is using the umbrella of our protection to renew traditional grievances.

4. We propose an international peace conference in Geneva where we have the USA, FRA, SRY, RUS, IRN, IRQ and the major Kurdish factions get together to agree to post-conflict terms.

We are doing a version of 3. I don’t think 1 or 2 are smart options. I think option 4 only sounds good in faculty lounges, the permanent FP nomenklatura who see wonderful rent seeking job security here, or on Earth 2 where this might actually work.

Our partners of convenience (YPG) is a partner with a terrorist organization (PKK) that threatens a treaty ally on whose nation we have thousands of military personnel and family members, aircraft, and nuclear weapons stationed on. With the major threat gone, it is only natural that Turkey will adjust their tolerance of a threat to their security – a comparable one we would not suffer long on the Mexican or Canadian border. If you don’t like that calculus, then first you need to get our nukes out of Turkey, then our military personnel, and then Turkey out of NATO. If you do that, then I will entertain arguments why our military should stand against the military of Turkey over a bit of territory that was, for centuries until 100 years ago, Turkish. No promises I will agree with you, but I will entertain arguments.

As a final note, if you wonder about my thoughts across administrations on Syria, please click the tag below. It’s all there. Facts changed over time that make some comments OBE, but I stand by it all.

Syria: a Festival of Bad Options

Time to quote myself from 2013 with regards to the Syrian Civil War; However one comes to, "Syria; not our fight" - I frankly don't car...

cdrsalamander.blogspot.com

 

[Fluff]

You make it sound as if the US "deployed" the Kurds from their safe homes in Kansas to fight ISIS.

The Kurds were fighting for their lives in their own homes and were getting slaughtered until the US stepped in and helped them defeat a common enemy, ISIS.

The Kurds, or at least the Syrian Kurds have already negotiated a deal with Assad. So, let the Syrians, Russians, Turks and Iranians sort this out. No need to hand this war to the next generation of American lads.

Agree that US lives, or indeed any other 'not directly involved' lives are not worth it. But as US was supporting the Kurds, it does feel to me that a little more notice to them would have been polite. Would a week have made a difference - I would say so. It would also have shown some diplomatic agility from Mr Trump.

It really feels like a very cold hearted business decision. There are people's lives being dealt with. A week would have allowed the Kurds to move families, etc. and if this gave them some time to dig in so be it, if I understand the Kurds are the locals, its not Turkeys land.

If I was advising any other 'freedom fighters' etc I would advise caution in dealings with Uncle Sam. - reputations matter.

 

[Chazman]

Agree that US lives, or indeed any other 'not directly involved' lives are not worth it. But as US was supporting the Kurds, it does feel to me that a little more notice to them would have been polite. Would a week have made a difference - I would say so. It would also have shown some diplomatic agility from Mr Trump.

It really feels like a very cold hearted business decision. There are people's lives being dealt with. A week would have allowed the Kurds to move families, etc. and if this gave them some time to dig in so be it, if I understand the Kurds are the locals, its not Turkeys land.

If I was advising any other 'freedom fighters' etc I would advise caution in dealings with Uncle Sam. - reputations matter.

This has been an ongoing process for months. At any rate, the Syrian Kurds have already made their deal with Assad and Syrian forces are on their way.

And just a side note, no one makes deals with Uncle Sam or anyone else for that matter because they "like" them, they do them because it serves their interests.

 

[Fluff]

This has been an ongoing process for months. At any rate, the Syrian Kurds have already made their deal with Assad and Syrian forces are on their way.

And just a side note, no one makes deals with Uncle Sam or anyone else for that matter because they "like" them, they do them because it serves their interests.

Fellow travellers and all that, but no one takes a lift, then jumps out at the end and petrol bombs the car and other travellers. Maybe USA is different.....

 

[Chazman]

Fellow travellers and all that, but no one takes a lift, then jumps out at the end and petrol bombs the car and other travellers. Maybe USA is different.....

Is that a good analogy?

 

[Fluff]

Is that a good analogy?

No-one here has a seat at the table, but yes, from what we see, Trump decided that's it, no more use for these guys, Turkey do what you like.

From what we see the Kurds were still facing ISIS/Syrian forces, and all of a sudden a secure rear became their front.

As they used to say, not even a by your leave.

To make a further analogy Did he announce his divorce by inviting wife no1 to the second wedding?

Seriously these are peoples lives, no one says he owes them 100 tanks or to keep turkey on a leash for ever, but he could have said here's a few planes of ammo, Turkey not happy with you, I have held them for a week while you get ready, good luck god bless. Which option looks cut-throat or imbecilic, and which looks supportive of a one time ally, and diplomatic.

 

[Chazman]

No-one here has a seat at the table, but yes, from what we see, Trump decided that's it, no more use for these guys, Turkey do what you like.

From what we see the Kurds were still facing ISIS/Syrian forces, and all of a sudden a secure rear became their front.

As they used to say, not even a by your leave.

To make a further analogy Did he announce his divorce by inviting wife no1 to the second wedding?

Seriously these are peoples lives, no one says he owes them 100 tanks or to keep turkey on a leash for ever, but he could have said here's a few planes of ammo, Turkey not happy with you, I have held them for a week while you get ready, good luck god bless. Which option looks cut-throat or imbecilic, and which looks supportive of a one time ally, and diplomatic.

Don't assume all Kurds are homogeneous. There is a difference between Syrian, Iraqi, Turkish and Iranian Kurds. They may all have general agreement on certain things, but great disagreements on many things. Trump had wanted the Syrian Kurds to come to an agreement with Turkey for many months now. They refused. I guess they figured that generations of American boys would gladly spill their blood to defend THEIR status quo for centuries. Well....I guess not. And looky here, an agreement was reached in less than a week.

After this, let the locals work this out. As someone wisely stated: not our circus, not our clowns.

 

[Fluff]

Don't assume all Kurds are homogeneous. There is a difference between Syrian, Iraqi, Turkish and Iranian Kurds. They may all have general agreement on certain things, but great disagreements on many things. Trump had wanted the Syrian Kurds to come to an agreement with Turkey for many months now. They refused. I guess they figured that generations of American boys would gladly spill their blood to defend THEIR status quo for centuries. Well....I guess not. And looky here, an agreement was reached in less than a week.

I don't believe any of the Kurds thought US troops were dying for them.

After this, let the locals work this out. As someone wisely stated: not our circus, not our clowns.

I don't disagree, just a bit of notice might have helped lower the bodycount, on all sides.

In another thread I said, I think Turkey will withdraw in a few days, having given Kurds a good kicking, Kurds will get some autonomy in Syria etc.
Turkey looks strong, Russia looks diplomatic, Syria on a map looks complete, and Trump looks well, like Trump.

 

[Chazman]

In another thread I said, I think Turkey will withdraw in a few days, having given Kurds a good kicking, Kurds will get some autonomy in Syria etc.
Turkey looks strong, Russia looks diplomatic, Syria on a map looks complete, and Trump looks well, like Trump.

And in the end...the thing was accomplished.

 

[Fluff]

And in the end...the thing was accomplished.

And I'm sure Trump will claim to have helped make it happen, and at least in CONUS his core vote will accept this. OCONUS we all look on and shake our heads - Iraq etc should have at the very least have suggested(to the US) that a bit of forethought, a bit of what UK calls quiet diplomacy, Putin probably says realpolitik, can help get things done.

I don't in any way wish this, but with people/tribes/religion involved, Mr Trump may, inadvertently have helped create the next group of people setting out to teach 'the west' a lesson. You may say it would happen anyway, but do you poke a bear, or make a careful and quiet retreat, and go about your business.

 

[Chazman]

And I'm sure Trump will claim to have helped make it happen, and at least in CONUS his core vote will accept this. OCONUS we all look on and shake our heads - Iraq etc should have at the very least have suggested(to the US) that a bit of forethought, a bit of what UK calls quiet diplomacy, Putin probably says realpolitik, can help get things done.

I don't in any way wish this, but with people/tribes/religion involved, Mr Trump may, inadvertently have helped create the next group of people setting out to teach 'the west' a lesson. You may say it would happen anyway, but do you poke a bear, or make a careful and quiet retreat, and go about your business.

Now you are blaming Trump for Iraq? Please go back a read the possible options for Syria I quoted from the CDR Salamandar site.

The Globalists/Swamp creatures would like nothing more than a protracted war in Syria which involves the US. Think of the billions or even trillions in contracts for war and reconstruction. The lives destroyed would simply be an inconsequential cost of business.

CDR Sal's Option 3 is the only one worth pursuing and that's what just happened.

The next group of nutjobs will be created no matter what. They've been doing that for centuries. Best that the US leave that mess to the locals.

 

[colin traveller]

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[colin traveller]

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[riderboy]

Rut-Roh. A little clearer now why they want to keep this "whistleblower" anonymous. If this is indeed true. We do know he's a registered Democrat.

BREAKING: Whistleblower Worked With Joe Biden At The Obama White House

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattv...ONBcUvxuQBdQpiY0wWEG-AhdWoQo1g3JNP-2vC5697pnY

 

[riderboy]

Yep. Spot on.

Opinions
Trump could be the most honest president in modern history

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...aefc5a-cd76-11e8-a3e6-44daa3d35ede_story.html

 

[Mordoror]

This guy is definitively ........retarded ....

Trump: Kurds Are ‘Not Angels.’ In Fact, They’re ‘Worse at Terror’ Than ISIS

Trump: Kurds Are ‘Not Angels.’ In Fact, They’re ‘Worse at Terror’ Than ISIS

The president explains that the forces his own administration allied with against ISIS were actually worse than ISIS all along.

nymag.com

1- no they are not
2- and it means that USOCOM and western SF and air forces have fought alongside worse than ISIS terrorist groups with US DoD and US President approval


EXCLUSIVE: I have obtained a copy of ⁦@realDonaldTrump⁩’s letter to #Erdogan. ⁦@POTUS⁩ warns him to not “be a tough guy! Don’t be a fool!”

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The content of this letter is .......kindergarden school grade level ....
Even Foxnews is shaking its head with disbelief ....

Seriously, make Trump councellors do something ..... close his tweeter account, prepare his speeches and watch his diplomatic letters...

 

[Ivan le Fou]

And what is supposed to be the problem exactly?

At least the message is clear and straight forward. But yeah, it sure is a big change from all the usual conventional and formal messages that favor the form over the content.

I have read, and still am reading, official communicates, documents and other letters sent and shared by various administrations, and though the form of Trump's letter is unusual, going all mad and ad hominem about it is... questionable. Sure, there are people who don't like Trump for valid reasons, other don't like him "just because", but it is not as if anybody were asking your advice on how things are conducted either.
If it upsets you that much though, you can still send the WH your resume. Maybe you'll get a job a speech-writer, State Secretary for "whatever", communication expert, etc... Who knows, if Trump's team is that incompetent, you'll obviously end up shining.

2- and it means that USOCOM and western SF and air forces have fought alongside worse than ISIS terrorist groups with US DoD and US President approval

Though saying the Kurds are worse than ISIS is a huge f**k up, the US (and its allies in the region) have indeed worked, to some extent, alongside with shady groups. Trained them, delivered weapons and financial support, etc... things that predate Trump's presidency.
The big difference is, Trump decided to stop. And NOW people are getting upset? So... does that mean the US and its allies should keep on doing what they used to do? Delivering weapons to rebel groups and insurgents, only to realize way later that these groups are not the good guys we thought they were?


Making sense of that outrage turns out to be a bit complicated...



Edit: and Erdogan claimed he has thrown the letter to the trash.