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[muck]

2- Because mothballed equipment is often only partly serviceable i.e it needs generaly an important overhaul/maintenance to get ready, something that is expensive by itself. For example, for an armored vehicle, all hydraulic have to be checked, any air in the system has to be chased away and hydraulic fluids have to be reloaded, engines have to be checked, track system has to be greased and overhauled.
Also procurements are often industrial pork barrels and mothballed vehciles are often coming from tranches not needed and intended to be sold/scrapped later

I worked in army logistics, mate. I saw MG3's in mint condition sent off to the scrapper, whilst the unit in which I'd completed my basic training had to make do with worn-out machine guns with production stamps from the 1970s. I saw countless man-hours poured into the maintaining of engines, the changing of batteries, even washes of vehicles that had never seen an exercise ground.

It's probably not gotten better since. The worst part being, most of this mismanagement is the fault of tinpot napoleons (as we used to call them) that wouldn't show any initiative or critical thinking and inflated their importance by declining requests just because they could.

 

[Mordoror]

I worked in army logistics, mate. I saw MG3's in mint condition sent off to the scrapper, whilst the unit in which I'd completed my basic training had to make do with worn-out machine guns with production stamps from the 1970s. I saw countless man-hours poured into the maintaining of engines, the changing of batteries, even washes of vehicles that had never seen an exercise ground.

It's probably not gotten better since. The worst part being, most of this mismanagement is the fault of tinpot napoleons (as we used to call them) that wouldn't show any initiative or critical thinking and inflated their importance by declining requests just because they could.

I dont have your experience.
What i have seen is worn out models used and used again and then squeezed a bit for more use. That's the reputation of the french army and it is widely aknowledged in its own rank.
Newer models were back my time awaited as the messiah.
I have seen vehicles not fit for safe use on frontline still used (one sanitary VAB without A/C -minor issue except if you have to carry true wounded-, one sanitary VAB with defective protection panels around oxygen bottles -major issue in case of hit-, one AMX30B with defective gun fume evacuation -to the point we had to reanimate the crews twice during main gun shooting exercises)

I dont think that things are better. Loss of national service has meant loss of "free" draftees mechanics, electricians, plumbers...

Now almost everything is outsourced and you said it, it is in no way an insurance of quality and quick repair times as well as correct price

The difference between your army and the french one is that our, being expeditionary by spirit, the first levels of maintenance are still performable and performed on the field before feeling the need to send back the vehicle to the producer for provider support.
Something your army rely much more on if i am not mistaken

 

[muck]

I have seen vehicles not fit for safe use on frontline still used (one sanitary VAB without A/C -minor issue except if you have to carry true wounded-, one sanitary VAB with defective protection panels around oxygen bottles -major issue in case of hit-, one AMX30B with defective gun fume evacuation -to the point we had to reanimate the crews twice during main gun shooting exercises)

Jesus Christ! I'm at a loss for words.

And I thought I'd been off badly when we had to use grass or strips of fabric stuffed into the receiver to make our decrepit machine guns stop rattling around.

The difference between your army and the french one is that our, being expeditionary by spirit, the first levels of maintenance are still performable and performed on the field before feeling the need to send back the vehicle to the producer for provider support.
Something your army rely much more on if i am not mistaken

You're right for the most part. The German military has almost lost the ability to maintain its own aerial vehicles and submarines. The land forces aren't off quite as badly (with the notable exception of the Puma IFV), and luckily our new minister of defence recently decided not to sell off the army's logistical centre to the industry.

But still, it's an untenable situation totally geared towards a military that's not faced more serious threats than the occasional band of insurgents for two decades.

And you're absolutely right it's a dead-end, not least since civilian companies abide by a different set of laws and economic necessities, especially with regards to the first come, first served policy of a free market enterprise. Also, Europe's militaries have become much too small a customer and our arms are produced in too small a quantity to be a lucrative business sector.

Nowhere does this become more apparent than by comparing the availability and readiness rates of e.g. the Tiger (33% and 22%) with those of the H135/H145 in German service (99%/98%). The latter are hardly ever sidelined since owing to the thousands of civilian variants dotting the skies around the world there's an abundance of able technicians and spare parts to keep them in pristine condition.

But no company is going to employ a host of specialists to maintain a fleet of only 53 helicopters, and no company is going to fire up the production line for but a handful of spare parts every other week. From a financial point of view, it'd be the height of folly. Our politicians do not seem to realise this, though. All they see is a support contract reduces the price tag the press is going to wag its tongue about.

Ironically, the hidden follow-up costs often exceed the savings potential. I mean, just look at Australia: They're going to spent billions on a new attack helicopter in a few years time.

 

[Fish&Chips]

Ironically, the hidden follow-up costs often exceed the savings potential. I mean, just look at Australia: They're going to spent billions on a new attack helicopter in a few years time.

Meanwhile Austria it seeking to replace its fairly new Eurofighters with a more cost-effective model by the end of 2020. The rationale being that buying a new fleet of fighters with moderate maintenance costs from scratch would still be cheaper than maintaining the Typhoon for the rest of their shelf life. Has anyone heard news of this ongoing process?

 

[BravoZulu]

Meanwhile Austria it seeking to replace its fairly new Eurofighters with a more cost-effective model by the end of 2020. The rationale being that buying a new fleet of fighters with moderate maintenance costs from scratch would still be cheaper than maintaining the Typhoon for the rest of their shelf life. Has anyone heard news of this ongoing process?

Found this amongst many stories which seem to confirm the issues but no updated news since May 2019 :
May 22/19: Investigation halted again? The investigations into Austria’s Eurofighter purchase may come to an abrupt end once more as the coalition between the conservatives and the right-wing FPÖ collapsed on the weekend. The 2002 purchase of Austria’s Eurofighter Typhoons has been investigated due to a possible corruption scandal involving bribes in the amount of around $111.6 million. The current investigation committee is already the third on this matter. Investigation committees have to cease interrogations when the date of new elections is announced. Chancellor Sebastian Kurz has announced a snap election on Saturday, after a video-scandal surrounding vice-chancellor Heinz-Christian Strache forced him to end the coalition. However, a specific date for the new elections has not yet been declared. In 2017, the second investigation into the Eurofighter scandal has ended the same way, when snap elections were announced following the collapse of the coalition between the social-democratic SPÖ and the conservatives.
2018
December 10/18: What will it be? The Austrian government is currently debating the future of the country’s air force. Austrian newspaper Die Presse reports that the coalition government is split over whether to keep its fleet of Eurofighter Tranche 1 Block 5 fighter aircraft or replace them with new Saab Gripen jets. Austria is currently in a legal battle with the Eurofighter consortium, accusing them of fraud and wilful deception in connection with the $2 billion, 12 unit plane order signed in 2003. The conservatives prefer to keep the Eurofighters, whereas the Freedom Party prefers to replace the planes. Die Presse notes that both options would cost about the same, and adds that keeping the jets will also require various upgrades and new weapon systems. Austria’s MoD is currently plagued by a declining budget but needs to replace its ageing aircraft fleet, upcoming purchases may include new helicopters and Leonardo’s M-345.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/eurofighter-set-for-rough-ride-in-austria-updated-02701/

 

[muck]

Austria's government famously collapsed over the summer. Since the conservatives have won the snap election held in the meantime, Austria's likely to continue to use the aircraft.

But Fish&Chips is right, that shitshow is a terrific example of what we were talking about earlier.

At the turn of the century, Vienna had meant to buy 24 Tranche 2 Typhoons. In order to lower the pricetag, they cut that number to 15 Tranche 1, ignoring this would raise their operating costs.

In another bid to achieve said outcome, they decided to swap six of their new aircraft for six of the oldest ones from Germany – jets which the Luftwaffe had merely used for training and pilot familiarisation since they lacked vital components.

As if that were not enough, the Austrians decided not to buy Pirate, Praetorian, weapons other than the dated AIM-9L or even spare parts; heck, they didn't even buy NV-capable helmets for all their pilots. And since the Austrian government "forgot" to acquire an IFF that could communicate with the remainder of their ageing fleet, they ended up adopting a frankensteinish solution that has seen the deployment of American contractors to Austria who have to manually feed every aircraft with current encryption codes prior to take-off.

Including development costs, a Typhoon flight hour costs Germany 68,000 € – even that price tag is inflated by fleet reductions. The Austrians, who didn't spend a dime on the aircraft's development, pay 75,000 € per flight hour though. No one's going to buy Tranche 1 Typhoons lacking vital tech, so all they can do is scrap their jets if they don't want them anymore.

In a nutshell, if they don't exhaust the plane's service life they'll have to foot a bill that would exceed even what updating those jets to a sufficient standard would cost – especially now that the Spanish have come up with a low-cust upgrade for their Tranche 1's.

It's a clusterfuck of epic proportions, but one of their own making. I daresay it could've been avoided had they just struck the deal their own experts favoured.

 

[Mordoror]

And you're absolutely right it's a dead-end, not least since civilian companies abide by a different set of laws and economic necessities, especially with regards to the first come, first served policy of a free market enterprise. Also, Europe's militaries have become much too small a customer and our arms are produced in too small a quantity to be a lucrative business sector.

Nowhere does this become more apparent than by comparing the availability and readiness rates of e.g. the Tiger (33% and 22%) with those of the H135/H145 in German service (99%/98%). The latter are hardly ever sidelined since owing to the thousands of civilian variants dotting the skies around the world there's an abundance of able technicians and spare parts to keep them in service

The stories i mentioned are from a draft time. During the CW and after it, massive armies were supposed disposable. As well as the equipment. The CW issued FAMAs magazines had a poor string because they were not supposed to last. However we still used them at the end of the 90s with plenty of jamming issues. This is one of the problem with aged equipment.

The other thing is that paradoxicalt, more modern equipment is more prone for technical issues ( and i am not speaking about teething issues)
A gazelle,VAB, Amx10P were all mechanical and hydraulic. Two slaps of hammer and one spin of screwdriver were often enough to make them operational.
Not the case with full of electronic vehicles.
Much like modern cars vs 80s models.

 

[Kaiserschlacht]

Meanwhile in the UK..

Top brass plans to shrink army


Defence chiefs are discussing plans to slash the size of the British Army and lend one of the Royal Navy’s flagship aircraft carriers to the UK’s allies amid fears they may be forced into further defence cuts.

The Tory manifesto, published today, will ditch an explicit commitment made just two years ago by Theresa May to “maintain the overall size of the armed forces”.

Instead, it will vow to maintain defence spending at more than 2% of GDP and raise it each year at half a percentage point above inflation. However, defence sources say service chiefs are already in conflict over plans that would refocus Britain’s war-fighting capability and cut the number of personnel. Senior officers are discussing an army of between 60,000 and 65,000, the smallest for centuries.

The 2015 Tory manifesto promised that the army’s strength would not fall below 82,000, but that commitment has already been dropped, with the army now just 73,000 strong.

Top brass plans to shrink army

Defence chiefs are discussing plans to slash the size of the British Army and lend one of the Royal Navy’s flagship aircraft carriers to the UK’s allies amid fears they may be forced into further defence cuts.The Tory manifesto, published today, will ditch an explicit commitment made just two years

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[TheKiwi]

...

Ironically, the hidden follow-up costs often exceed the savings potential. I mean, just look at Australia: They're going to spent billions on a new attack helicopter in a few years time.

The Australian's will almost certainly go with the Apache - for which with over 2,000 built and it still in production there are ample spares. As well as compatibility with their most likely ally.

 

[pigmode]

Queen Elizabeth carriers 'to be integrated' into US Carrier Operations

The Royal Navy say its Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers will be interchangeable with US Navy carriers.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The Royal Navy say its Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers will be interchangeable with US Navy carriers.

First Sea Lord Admiral Tony Radakin was addressing the second Atlantic Future Forum, onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth while the ship was moored in the Chesapeake Bay just offshore of Annapolis, the US Naval Institute reported.

“As she has demonstrated already, we can successfully field a combined US, UK carrier strike group. I look forward to this developing further, moving to the point where we are not only talking about interoperability, but we are looking for interchangeability.”

F-35Bs on HMS Queen Elizabeth.
Commodore Steve Moorhouse, Queen Elizabeth’s commanding officer, reportedly told members of the media:

“What we’re trying to do is get beyond being interoperable. There are lots of nations that can do that. What we want to be here is absolutely integrated, so almost it doesn’t matter what flag you’re flying; the U.S. ship or aircraft can dock into our strike group seamlessly as though it was a British ship. We’ve made some huge strides this autumn getting into that.”

An MV-22 Osprey from HX-21 Air Test and Evaluation Squadron lands onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth.
In 2021, HMS Queen Elizabeth will deploy with two frigates, two destroyers, a nuclear submarine and support vessels. The ship will also carry 24 F-35B jets, including US Marine Corps aircraft, in addition to a number of helicopters.

Captain Jerry Kyd, former commander of HMS Queen Elizabeth, commented on the initial deployment and the gradual increase in air wing numbers

“We are constrained by the F-35 buy rate even though that was accelerated in SDSR in 2015, so initial operating capability numbers in 2020 are going to be very modest indeed. We will flesh it out with helicopters, and a lot depends on how many USMC F-35s come on our first deployment in 2021. But by 2023, we are committed to 24 UK jets onboard, and after that it’s too far away to say.”

British F-35Bs onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth.
After the deployment, by around 2023, the Ministry of Defence have indicated that the UK will have 42 F-35 aircraft with 24 being ‘front-line fighters’ and the remaining 18 will be used for training (at least 5 on the OCU), be in reserve or in maintenance.

 

[Chazman]

Royal Navy Intends HMS Queen Elizabeth to be Integrated into U.S. Carrier Operations

follow the link above for the full story

ABOARD HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH, IN THE CHESAPEAKE BAY — The U.K. Royal Navy intends its largest, most advanced warship ever built to be considered interchangeable with U.S. Navy carriers, its top admiral said on Thursday.

HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08) is indicative of both Great Britain’s return to carrier-based fixed-wing flight operations after a decade’s absence and the strength of its cross Atlantic partnership with the U.S., said Adm. Tony Radakin, the First Sea Lord and U.K. Chief of Naval Staff. Radakin was in Queen Elizabeth’s hangar bay addressing the second Atlantic Future Forum, while the ship was moored in the Chesapeake Bay just offshore of Annapolis, Md.

“As she has demonstrated already, we can successfully field a combined U.S., U.K. carrier strike group,” Radakin said. “I look forward to this developing further, moving to the point where we are not only talking about interoperability, but we are looking for interchangeability. ”

Interoperability is great. But I can't imagine the QE being interchangeable with a Nimitz or Ford. I also suspect that it's cheaper for the RN to tag along with the USN than is to buy enough escorts and aircraft to fully equip/escort the QE and POW for independent operations.

 

[Kaiserschlacht]

What a sad news coming from Mali,the Elysee palace has confirmed 13 French soldiers were killed in an helicopter accident in the Liptako region of Mali during an anti terror operation. More news should come but seems two helicopters collided.

 

[BravoZulu]

Germany:
The coastguard arm of the German Federal Police commissioned its third and final Potsdam-class offshore patrol vessel (OPV), FGS Bad Düben (BP 83), during a ceremony held in Cuxhaven, Germany, on 20 November.
The 86 m OPVs were built under a contract awarded to Fassmer shipyard in December 2016. The design is derived from Fassmer's proven OPV 80, with modifications including a hybrid propulsion system and exhaust treatment system to meet Tier III/ECA standards.
Fassmer subcontracted the steelwork for the second and third hulls to Western Baltija Shipbuilding in Klaipeda, Lithuania, with outfitting taking place back in Germany. First-of-class FGS Potsdam (BP 81) was commissioned on 22 July 2019, followed by the second ship FGS Bamberg (BP 82) on 18 September.

First-of-class Potsdam entered service in July
https://www.janes.com/article/92798/german-coastguard-commissions-third-potsdam-opv

 

[Picanha]

Interoperability is great. But I can't imagine the QE being interchangeable with a Nimitz or Ford. I also suspect that it's cheaper for the RN to tag along with the USN than is to buy enough escorts and aircraft to fully equip/escort the QE and POW for independent operations.

That may be the point. The RN hasn't enough escorts problem is the European allies are not really trustworthy. In the end I think the idea is not that bad as European navies have enough escorts. But politics politics...

How about the USN, could it provide the needed escorts? And still have enough for their own tasks?

I also agree that the QE and PoW are not a supercarrier replacement.

But seeing

 

[Mordoror]

That may be the point. The RN hasn't enough escorts problem is the European allies are not really trustworthy. In the end I think the idea is not that bad as European navies have enough escorts. But politics politics...

How about the USN, could it provide the needed escorts? And still have enough for their own tasks?

I also agree that the QE and PoW are not a supercarrier replacement.

But seeing

You are reversing the issue
The 1000 navy fleet is a US doctrine and in that doctrine the Europeans are auxiliaries.
So not only most of the European navies depend of the US fleets for complementary capabilities they are lacking but we are mentaly forged to think in that way.
The only countries that have the whole spectrum of capabilities are the Royal Navy and the French Navy. And it is a shame to see the Royal Navy once a self sufficient fleet become another auxiliary fleet if the information above proves true.

 

[Picanha]

I wouldn't go so far, sure most navys assist USN in escorting the carrier fleets but besides that the Europan navies are quite capable - they mostly only operate together - Falklands might have been the last time a European country could pull that off alone.

If you look at the SNMGs they are exlusively European.

The Russian Navy is evolving into a smaller fleet and Chinese Navy is still far away from contesting the US Navy, which is clearly shown by its reliance on anti carrier missiles.

European countries can very well put up a sizeable naval force and protect at least two carrier strike groups.

Or look at Flotex19

We're sorry

Allied Maritime Command (MARCOM) is the central command of all NATO maritime forces and the Commander MARCOM is the prime maritime advisor to the Alliance.

mc.nato.int

All in all I think European Navys, with the relatively strong RN and the MN, is one of teh fields where it looks rather OK. And setting teh political dribble aside offers room for fianacial improvement whiel maintaining capabilites.

My non naval 2ct

 

[Mordoror]

I wouldn't go so far, sure most navys assist USN in escorting the carrier fleets but besides that the Europan navies are quite capable - they mostly only operate together - Falklands might have been the last time a European country could pull that off alone.

If you look at the SNMGs they are exlusively European.

The Russian Navy is evolving into a smaller fleet and Chinese Navy is still far away from contesting the US Navy, which is clearly shown by its reliance on anti carrier missiles.

European countries can very well put up a sizeable naval force and protect at least two carrier strike groups.

Or look at Flotex19

We're sorry

Allied Maritime Command (MARCOM) is the central command of all NATO maritime forces and the Commander MARCOM is the prime maritime advisor to the Alliance.

mc.nato.int

All in all I think European Navys, with the relatively strong RN and the MN, is one of teh fields where it looks rather OK. And setting teh political dribble aside offers room for fianacial improvement whiel maintaining capabilites.

My non naval 2ct

Oh i have no problem with common training, exercise, escorts, naval operations.
I have a problem when we are losing fields of experience or spectrum of capability because we are tied to the USNavy.
Partly US fault ( the 1000 ships doctrine pushing for more integration of European -as well as asiatic navies like JSDF and ROK- around US fleets so less independant operational mindset) and for the most part our european fault in the sense that : "we don't need that spectrum of capability, it will be covered by US Navy/NATO fleet pool".

For example Most Euro navies have lost long range airborne ASW capability both because ASW has declined in the US Navy in the past decades (fortunately, there is a rebound about that right now), and because the remaining capabilities (P3C Orion) are pooled into a NATO pool that is shrinking in both number and frames/planes. In Instance, Netherland for example sold ALL of his MPA to Germany, Spain, Portugal and Norway, keeping none but enjoying NATO pool or subcontracting private contractors in Luxemburg.

 

[Picanha]

Well I agree on that loss of capabilities is never good hence the pooling approach.

On the P3Cs Germany spent a fortune and so far no Euro Navy is interested in the A319 MPA.

A319 MPA Maritime Patrol Aircraft

The A319 MPA is a long range maritime patrol and ASW aircraft developed by Airbus Military. The aircraft can be…

www.naval-technology.com

 

[Chazman]

That may be the point. The RN hasn't enough escorts problem is the European allies are not really trustworthy. In the end I think the idea is not that bad as European navies have enough escorts. But politics politics...

How about the USN, could it provide the needed escorts? And still have enough for their own tasks?

I also agree that the QE and PoW are not a supercarrier replacement.

But seeing

Well, I suppose the USN might be in a better position to provide escorts than the RN. But the US Navy still has years of deferred maintenance to catch up on, which will take ships out of service.

Also, Nimitz class carriers going in for maintenance/overhaul are taking longer than expected to return to service, again because of years of hard use, without proper maintenance. Integrating QE into operations may take the pressure off the maintenance availability of the US carrier fleet, at least temporarily and also give the RN valuable training with their new ships and systems.

But in the end, it's a good thing for the navies of the US, UK, Western Europe, Japan, Australia, et, al, to operate with one another.

 

[Fish&Chips]

The coastguard arm of the German Federal Police commissioned its third and final Potsdam-class offshore patrol vessel (OPV), FGS Bad Düben (BP 83), during a ceremony held in Cuxhaven, Germany, on 20 November.

I'm waiting to see the 57 mm gun turret attached on these vessels.