Politics The EU is killing Europe

[Chazman]

I fear for the future of Europe. Most of my relatives live or are from Europe. The EU is killing Europe in a slow motion suicide.


- Birth rates are collapsing and European countries are being over run by millions of immigrants.
- Population has grown, yet GDP is stagnant.
- Deindustrialization by woke and green initiatives.
- Regulatory environment is stifling
- Europe can no longer defend itself nor protect it's international interests
-The energy sector has been gutted

The EU is a socialist entity strangling Europe to death.

Discuss....

 

[primer]

- Birth rates are collapsing and European countries are being over run by millions of immigrants.
- Population has grown, yet GDP is stagnant.
- Deindustrialization by woke and green initiatives.
- Regulatory environment is stifling
- Europe can no longer defend itself nor protect it's international interests
-The energy sector has been gutted

Birth rates and migrants mirror image.

GDP ? 2024 over 75% of jobs conservatively was public, health (ageing & obese) and retail had nothing to do with real growth debt increased several trillion.

Kennedy got a job based on the poor health of Americans, education was down the bottom.

War gaming Taiwan, China won according to current defence secretary Hegseth. Unless they are baiting China now before China's advantage 300 to 1 in ship building grows.
Eric Prince suggests Taiwanese should do what Zelensky did and open up the armoury.

Your energy is ok but due to having some benevolent jurasic basin so you can't really compare. EPA is equally hard on development as the EU

Wall street loved the woke band wagon and was a cheer leader, internationally there has been the great de-wokening, our banks have been told by the polititians to stop being gay.

We were doing our own doge and fireing public waste before Trump, since our last election. USA didn't invent libertarianism, he was actually Chinese.

Trump won the election campaigned on how terrible the US was. Over half agreed. The other half thought Trump should be in prison.

 

[primer]

I don't know if you know Helen Clarke but Trumps has been prooving her right, and that is an astonishing thing to have happen as she is a queen of the left. Trump ok for the Iraq war and the same time the US shifted the other way he went with it. Well too late to win a prize.

She warned against Iraq as the evidence was shonky, she now warns against future US adventures after the debacle and wants to withdraw from 5 eyes.
As said prefered celestial satelite state comes with benefits with our main trading partner and we can't afford made in USA.

 

[PEMM]

The EU mirrors politics of countries inside the EU. None of these issues were a thing if countries in the EU (other than eastern Europe) actually actively opposed them. The reason that they don't, is that large chunk of the population support those policies.

You're barking up the wrong tree, the real culprit is found in voter's mirror.

This will have to change with the changing reality, including serious increase on defence spending.

 

[thelistener]

Interesting subject as a EU skeptic myself.
But given your bullet points you have to seperate what are caused and aided by EU and what are national choices to have a meaningful discussion.
EU did not force Germany shut down their nuclear plants, EU did not stop Finland's new nuclear reactor, nor did EU stop the flow of migrants through belarus and Russia it was Poland's, Finland's own choice and policy, EU did not force Germany or Sweden to decrease defense spending etc.

There are Europe wide issues and some of those are aided by EU policy, but ultimately most of them are national.
I think its disingenuous to blame EU on poor national energy policy, migrant policy or defense policy and then wish that EU will solve them overnight. What i've seen is that EU is and will try to address these issues (as we have all seen) but ultimately EU is not a federation and nations need to fix it themselves unless EU federalizes in this current climate more rapidly.

edit. I think i made by point clear but just to drive home my point;
Blaming EU for Germany shooting itself in the foot for the past 20 years in national policy decisions and now EU is trying to help germany solve them is ridiculous when there are genuine problems with the EU.

edit 2. I have seen this increasingly for the past 6 months; EU is bad (on issues mainly caused by national decisions) and we need an European solution to this problem, but EU is, even as a concept still bad. EU's decision making is so slow, all talk and no action, and at the same time giving more power to EU that would speed things up is vehemently opposed.
Like make up your f***ing mind already.

 

[skaw]

Imho, as said by @PEMM and @thelistener ..the EU is not the real or at least only problem.

But as a matter of fact i think the EU would be the solution IF it moves a huge step towards sth. like a federation or even becomes one. But i fear this will be very difficult if not impossible. Although there are similar problems across the countries which could be some kind of "unifying factor" to solve, there are still many (cultural) differences, which would be difficult to overcome.

Another issue that bugs me is an EU army. Despite units like the Franco-German Brigade or the cooperation between Netherlands and Germany (the popular ones i know of here, perhaps there are more?!) ...do you think a fully integrated multi-national EU-wide army could be really functional with so many different standards in action?

 

[Jake84]

I am a fierce critic of the EU; only on the birthrate point though as others have already covered different points eloquently:

It’s a white people thing, America isn’t immune either to lower fertility, neither is (far worse) Russia. Mormons in Utah still make a number of children - nowhere enough to maintain the broaden US fertility to replacement level which in the US like in the EU is made up by legal or illegal immigration.

 

[Junglejim]

I am a fierce critic of the EU; only on the birthrate point though as others have already covered different points eloquently:

It’s a white people thing, America isn’t immune either to lower fertility, neither is (far worse) Russia. Mormons in Utah still make a number of children - nowhere enough to maintain the broaden US fertility to replacement level which in the US like in the EU is made up by legal or illegal immigration.

Its not just a western thing, all over Asia birthrates are going down. As health care improves, the need for more kids to survive goes down, and people are now more open to activities that doesnt revolving around having a bajillion kids.

 

[primer]

Uneducated and pregnant.

Korean population is worse for decline.

Its a developed world problem if reducing world population is a problem, they says its an economic problem. I seem to remember there were more resources with less people. Its the size of the pie the govt can tax and the companies can sell to that shrinks thats their problem. Grow the economy they say, get migrants.

The world economic forum, the lefts version of the no nonsence named world internationalist communist forum. The afformentioned says this;
After a 70-year run, the global liberal order is under threat. The future of liberal democracy, open markets and common security pacts hang in the balance.
Still convinced their plan was so good and not considering why it hangs in the balance. Nothing really was learnt by the main stream news. Oddly they call themsleves investigative journalists.

 

[haze99]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[haze99]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Ivan le Fou]

The EU is killing the countries that are making the EU.

The EU isn't a Union, there is barely any unity apart from the Euro (and not all use it) and the Bruxelles bureaucracy.

It is a nice project, on paper, coming from a nice dream. But that's all this is.

People "like" the EU for the few benefits it gives, but aside from that it is nothing but a hollow, and rotting, husk; and aside from a few dreamers and dead-on optimists... frankly nobody really gives a damn about the EU.
Countries are way too different, with their own issues that are, at best, in dire need of being solved. The other issues are past any saving grace.

Basically the Union is a duct-taped patchwork of dysfunctional components.

 

[thelistener]

The EU is killing the countries that are making the EU.

The EU isn't a Union, there is barely any unity apart from the Euro (and not all use it) and the Bruxelles bureaucracy.

It is a nice project, on paper, coming from a nice dream. But that's all this is.

People "like" the EU for the few benefits it gives, but aside from that it is nothing but a hollow, and rotting, husk; and aside from a few dreamers and dead-on optimists... frankly nobody really gives a damn about the EU.
Countries are way too different, with their own issues that are, at best, in dire need of being solved. The other issues are past any saving grace.

Basically the Union is a duct-taped patchwork of dysfunctional components.

Interesting, haven't really heard such talking points since 2021 up here in the north.
Regardless of what EU is currently, do you believe that EU will change for the better, stay around or disintegrate?
What i'm seeing is that for better or worse this current crisis, just like euro crisis and covid etc before, will just "move" EU forward to a more integrated, possibly a relevant power bloc.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

As side note, many here such as @haze99 clearly and in Europe link migration issues directly to EU. Which seems absurd to my eyes. The only possible explanation i can figure out is that people like him (sorry for using haze as an example) link EU to "globalists, WEF, Soros, Woke" or other some such American culture war nonsense. Like @PEMM said, EU is a mirror to the nations itself. I can clearly see how EU is turning more "right wing" than before and that's due to nations inside doing the same.
It's a knee jerk reaction to want to exit EU cos of self made national issues, or woke, soros or other some such nonsense.

 

[Chazman]

The EU is killing the countries that are making the EU.

The EU isn't a Union, there is barely any unity apart from the Euro (and not all use it) and the Bruxelles bureaucracy.

It is a nice project, on paper, coming from a nice dream. But that's all this is.

People "like" the EU for the few benefits it gives, but aside from that it is nothing but a hollow, and rotting, husk; and aside from a few dreamers and dead-on optimists... frankly nobody really gives a damn about the EU.
Countries are way too different, with their own issues that are, at best, in dire need of being solved. The other issues are past any saving grace.

Basically the Union is a duct-taped patchwork of dysfunctional components.

Agreed.

 

[Chazman]

The EU mirrors politics of countries inside the EU. None of these issues were a thing if countries in the EU (other than eastern Europe) actually actively opposed them. The reason that they don't, is that large chunk of the population support those policies.

You're barking up the wrong tree, the real culprit is found in voter's mirror.

This will have to change with the changing reality, including serious increase on defence spending.

Like Brexit?

 

[PEMM]

Like Brexit?

I don't get the reference.

Most people don't want to disband the EU, here in Finland not even the eurosceptics.

 

[Chazman]

I don't get the reference.

Most people don't want to disband the EU, here in Finland not even the eurosceptics.

The UK voters looked in the mirror and voted to get out of the EU.

 

[PEMM]

The UK voters looked in the mirror and voted to get out of the EU.

I know, I was in Europe when it happened.

Here is approval ratings in 2023. I doubt there is a significant switch.

I see problems with the EU, but I'd rather do reforms.

People broadly view the EU favorably, both in member states and elsewhere

Across 24 countries surveyed, a median of 66% give the EU a positive rating, while 29% give it a negative one.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Chazman]

I know, I was in Europe when it happened.

Here is approval ratings in 2023. I doubt there is a significant switch.

I see problems with the EU, but I'd rather do reforms.

View attachment 520552

People broadly view the EU favorably, both in member states and elsewhere

Across 24 countries surveyed, a median of 66% give the EU a positive rating, while 29% give it a negative one.

www.pewresearch.org

What reforms do you feel would be needed?

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Interesting, haven't really heard such talking points since 2021 up here in the north.
Regardless of what EU is currently, do you believe that EU will change for the better, stay around or disintegrate?
What i'm seeing is that for better or worse this current crisis, just like euro crisis and covid etc before, will just "move" EU forward to a more integrated, possibly a relevant power bloc.

I don't think the EU will change for the better, I don't think it will disintegrate either.

It won't disintegrate because we have not yet reached that critical point yet. I don't think we will ever reach it either.
Such a scenario would require profound crisis within the countries (not all of them necessarily), between the countries (not all of them necessarily), etc... over a relatively long period of time (let's say a decade or so). In itself that requires a set of circumstances that are, in themselves, pretty unique and specific; like a societal collapse for instance.
Then you also have the fact a lot of countries rely on the EU, despite not liking it, because in order to join the EU you have to "bend over backward", in a sense, to fit in. That's a lot of work for a country and its society; and lots of countries can't afford to go through that.

For the EU to change for the better a tremendous work would be required to reform the various institutions currently making the core of the EU apparatus. Going back to the original roots, re-thinking the "EU project" as it was meant back when it was created.
What does "EU" mean? What is "EU" 's purpose? What is the goal? Why does "EU" need to exist? Why is "EU" important?

I suppose a return to the fundamentals would be greatly benefic to the EU, with policies meant to make the EU, as you said, a relevant power bloc that has its interests, and its people's interests, at heart. Just like other power blocs, and other "big countries", are putting their own interests, and their people's interests, first.

Well, "their people's interests"... we get to be happy with the crumbs if we can.