Politics The EU is killing Europe

How is this related to the subject?

One could argue the policies leading to these measures being taken are implemented by the benediction and anointment of Brussels.

Afterall, the European parliament spent a lot of time working on either laws or legal frameworks that would targeting speech in a variety of ways.
Thierry Breton was all up in arms about Musk purchasing Twitter and demanded restrictive measures to be put in place to protect from "disinformation"/"misinformation"/etc...

As it turns out, the concern wasn't so much about protecting the people from "dis/misinformation" than protecting the governing instances from criticisms and backlash.

Though, it remains, broadly, within the realm of speculation and hypothesis, we are seeing coercive measures being put in place in a number of countries outside of the usual suspect ones (China, DPRK, Turkey, etc...), where "dissenting" and refusing to go with the flow is an assured way to get your life expectancy dramatically reduced.
That this kind of thing happens in such countries has become "the norm", or at least accepted as par for the course.
However, seeing these measures implemented, though obviously not in the same proportions, in our midst is problematic to say the least.

It does happen on a daily basis in the UK and, I think but I am not sure, in other western countries of the Commonwealth.
It is happening in Germany.
It happened in the US under Biden.
Etc.

And it seems... fine. "Oh well, shouldn't have said the bad thing.", "don't say the no-no or else you'll get in big troubles", etc...


I don't know man, so many slippery slopes we were told, and assured, would never happen because "c'm'on man! that's nonsense conspiracy theory!" turned out to, well, indeed happen. Many of the "the gov would never do such a thing!" have been, in fact, done. And somehow it only got met with apathy.
What is the source of that apathy one might ask? Are people actually apathetic thus nothing can make them react? Are they so dumbfounded they don't know how to react? Are they simply fine with it? Was it something they, in fact, wanted (some people accommodated extremely well with any the government imposed restrictions during COVID for instance)?


So yeah, I think it can be related to the subject in the sense that it affects societal relations between people/citizens, but also between people and their "hierarchy". And when these ties are weakened enough they can lead to the construct to falter.
 
No. Germany's constitution enshrines a right to personal honour; insulting someone has been a punishable offence since 1949 in these parts (though it is not prosecuted unless the insulted party requests as much).

Wanna hear something funny, by the way? That clause was added to our constitution by General Lucius Clay, military governor of occupied Germany. Which might explain to some of you why Vance's lambasting us for criminalising insults baffled Germany.

Now, as for the journalist mentioned in that article; he was sentenced under a follow-on clause issued by parliament a couple of years ago in response to a surge of attacks on municipal politicians. It criminalises insults which, as the law put it, destroy the public's trust in that official's ability or willingness to discharge their duties faithfully and fairly. It has nothing got to do with the EU.

From a German juridical view point, the biggest problem with that law is not its intention but its design. Its wording is much too broad, leading to bucket loads of overbearing lower-instance rulings squashed by the higher courts with more experience in constitutional law.
 
Huh... yeah... lots of people got beheaded during the Reign of Terror.

A lot of people got killed en-masse in various other ways, and in the end it was not in the name of liberty, equality and fraternity.
How is it the crushing of the counter-revolution in the Vendée always gets overlooked in this context? Some authors suggest it was actually a genocide, as the revolutionary government aimed to destroy traditionally monarchist parts of the population.

Sorry for chiming in, but it's always been a curious subject to me how we tend to glorify the French revolution and Napoleon as well.
 
How is it the crushing of the counter-revolution in the Vendée always gets overlooked in this context? Some authors suggest it was actually a genocide, as the revolutionary government aimed to destroy traditionally monarchist parts of the population.

Sorry for chiming in, but it's always been a curious subject to me how we tend to glorify the French revolution and Napoleon as well.

Of all of the repression against counter-revolutionaries, be the genuine like the Chouans for the fidelity to the King or other groups under dubious reasons, Vendée received the most brutal and bloody one.

A parallel could be drawn with the scorched earths conducted by the British during the Revolutionary war in the Americas, and later during the Secession war, but these are peanuts compared to what took place in Vendée. I don't think "genocide" is the proper term, but that was pretty close to one, yes.

It is mentioned, but quickly, and usually the underlying tone is "well, they deserved it since they supported the King", "they were on the wrong side", etc... The gravity of the violence and exaction carried against the Chouans are overlooked as well, giving the whole thing a very sanitized aspect of one group fighting against another, and that one group lost. Pretty much how some famous Historical battle would be summarized.
But going into the details would imply tackling truly gruesome topics. And we don't want that, because that would be controversial.

As for the glorification thing, I think it is rather a mix of ignorance and romanticism, itself based on ignorance.
The mere premise of the Revolution, as told by those cheering up for it, is based on a falsehood. It wasn't "the people" who rose against the monarchy; but the bourgeoisie that used the people in order to "usurp" the power. It is more complex, though not necessarily complicated, than what is left to be believed.
And the Revolution wasn't just about beheading the King, the Queen and a few other "wrongdoers", as demonstrated by the fact people to be clueless about "The Reign of Terror".
Despite all of the Revolutions, or most of them at least, following the French model: popular uprising (which usually isn't one originally), toppling down of the ruling class, execution of said ruling class, extension to their sympathizers and whoever is deemed one, and then extension to those hosting "counter-revolutionary thoughts".

So yeah, everybody talking Revolution S**t until it's time to do Revolution S**t, without realizing they will be among the first to take part in the purges (as the ones being purged).


Napoléon however... it's a bit different.
I suppose one could argue the bloody purges got replaced by years of wars, however from a permanent cultural impact Napoléon made more lasting things for France than the Révolution.
Another aspect of the Révolution which isn't mentioned often, if ever, is the systematic destruction of sepultures, religious and cultural objects and edifices, lots of which predated the Révolution by centuries. If you visit museums, churches and castles in France you will see countless mentions of "destroyed during the Révolution".
 
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How is it the crushing of the counter-revolution in the Vendée always gets overlooked in this context? Some authors suggest it was actually a genocide, as the revolutionary government aimed to destroy traditionally monarchist parts of the population.

Sorry for chiming in, but it's always been a curious subject to me how we tend to glorify the French revolution and Napoleon as well.

Of all of the repression against counter-revolutionaries, be the genuine like the Chouans for the fidelity to the King or other groups under dubious reasons, Vendée received the most brutal and bloody one.

A parallel could be drawn with the scorched earths conducted by the British during the Revolutionary war in the Americas, and later during the Secession war, but these are peanuts compared to what took place in Vendée. I don't think "genocide" is the proper term, but that was pretty close to one, yes.

As for the glorification thing, I think it is rather a mix of ignorance and romanticism, itself based on ignorance.
The mere premise of the Revolution, as told by those cheering up for it, is based on a falsehood. It wasn't "the people" who rose against the monarchy; but the bourgeoisie that used the people in order to "usurp" the power. It is more complex, though not necessarily complicated, than what is left to be believed.
And the Revolution wasn't just about beheading the King, the Queen and a few other "wrongdoers", as demonstrated by the fact people to be clueless about "The Reign of Terror".
Despite all of the Revolutions, or most of them at least, following the French model: popular uprising (which usually isn't one originally), toppling down of the ruling class, execution of said ruling class, extension to their sympathizers and whoever is deemed one, and then extension to those hosting "counter-revolutionary thoughts".

So yeah, everybody talking Revolution S**t until it's time to do Revolution S**t, without realizing they will be among the first to take part in the purges (as the ones being purged).
For the TL;DR version: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
 
No. Germany's constitution enshrines a right to personal honour; insulting someone has been a punishable offence since 1949 in these parts (though it is not prosecuted unless the insulted party requests as much).

Wanna hear something funny, by the way? That clause was added to our constitution by General Lucius Clay, military governor of occupied Germany. Which might explain to some of you why Vance's lambasting us for criminalising insults baffled Germany.

Now, as for the journalist mentioned in that article; he was sentenced under a follow-on clause issued by parliament a couple of years ago in response to a surge of attacks on municipal politicians. It criminalises insults which, as the law put it, destroy the public's trust in that official's ability or willingness to discharge their duties faithfully and fairly. It has nothing got to do with the EU.

From a German juridical view point, the biggest problem with that law is not its intention but its design. Its wording is much too broad, leading to bucket loads of overbearing lower-instance rulings squashed by the higher courts with more experience in constitutional law.

Interesting.

That the law got passed at that period is, heh, "understandable" I suppose.

But that it remained in our days and age is rather backward, especially regarding the "destroy the public's trust in that official's ability or willingness to discharge their duties faithfully and fairly" part.

Assuredly insults don't have a place in civil discourse and bring nothing but discredit on the person who lost their temper. And if someone wants to make a fool out of themselves by throwing names, let them do that.
However, criminalizing it is, as I said, backward and, considering how laws are stretched to accommodate concepts such as "hate crimes" with links to whatever-phobia is, indeed, concerning and EU related.
 
No it's not. You can sue anyone insulting you and that happens much more often than the "hate speech" you are so obsessed with.

What do you want to say that's not possible can you give an example please?
 
UK
And malcontents squak on about muh colonialism (from two centuries ago) all the while this INJUSTICE and disenfranchiment of ethinic English happens in REAL TIME!?
 
No it's not. You can sue anyone insulting you and that happens much more often than the "hate speech" you are so obsessed with.

What do you want to say that's not possible can you give an example please?

You are missing the point.

The EU isn't working on ways to extend crime to "hate speech"? Didn't they try to pass something back in 97, but got denied because they could not define what "hate speech" was?

Yet we keep on hearing about it... how strange.

It isn't so much an obsession, but something we got hit on the head over and over again for the past 10 years if not more. And that something has no definition, being used very liberally to cover anything under the sun be it genuine hateful speech or just telling someone they are being a moron.

For instance, in some places, saying a trans-individual isn't either male or female due to being trans is deemed hate-speech, because it is deemed discriminatory.

The point being: abuse of a vague notion to avoid criticism and accountability.


Not sure why you are pretending this is something that does not exist. 🤔
 
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You are missing the point.

The EU isn't working on ways to extend crime to "hate speech"? Didn't they try to pass something back in 97, but got denied because they could not define what "hate speech" was?

Yet we keep on hearing about it... how strange.

It isn't so much an obsession, but something we got hit on the head over and over again for the past 10 years if not more. And that something has no definition, being used very liberally to cover anything under the sun be it genuine hateful speech or just telling someone they are being a moron.

For instance, in some places, saying a trans-individual isn't either male or female due to being trans is deemed hate-speech, because it is deemed discriminatory.

The point being: abuse of a vague notion to avoid criticism and accountability.


Not sure why you are pretending this is something that does not exist. 🤔

You can say a trans person is not male nor female. Where should I post that in the EU here?

The point is personal insults (nearly everything counts here that's what Muck mentioned).

Or stuff which can be regarded as to incite racial hatred (due to our history).

I think I can insult totally not woke very though people also pretty easily.

Its about respect and how to live together.

And its not a one way street. Look at how easy the Trump folks "hey can't say that are" are insulted.

Even upset that comedians make jokes very childish.

And much more important you can criticize everything just hit the right tone.
 
That's a very reductive and simplistic approach on things that fails to acknowledge both what has been done and the precedents it allows to happen.

And please... "Trump supporters upset by jokes made by comedians"? That's delusion to think these comedians aren't actually serious when they call anything under the sun slightly right of their own political position a "nazi" or a "fascist" that "should be killed", "eliminated", "removed", etc... under the guise of quirky puns and laughs-in-a-can. In addition to being fundamentally dishonest regarding the entire context in which these "jokes" and "childish insults" are set.

These are not jokes, they are calls for violent activism. Which, incidentally, led to a number of politically motivated criminal acts, some resulting with deaths, and several attempts on political figures (including SC Judges).

So, one might and should ask oneself "are these really childish jokes made by slop comedians"?

I'm sorry but calling for someone to get killed and then coming up with a "good" after the attempt has been made isn't about "respect", "living together", "being over-sensitive". Unless the underlying message is: well, respect, living togetherness and such will be achieve once the "over-sensitive" ones are removed.


You also have to ask yourself: what is an insult? Is the alleged insult an actual one, or is it factually correct?


For instance, Biden got called a demented geriatric pedo. Is that an insult or is it accurate?
For instance, the leader of the AfD got called a nazi and such. Is that an insult or is it accurate?
For instance, Mélanchon got called a populist antisemite. Is that an insult or is it accurate?
For instance, Trump got called mass-murdering spawn of the Devil literally worse than Mao, Stalin Pol Pot and Hitler. Is that an insult or is it accurate?
 
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