Politics China's Economy and Politics

[tomthounaojam]

I am not a fan of China, however, what we have assumed for the last 20 years regarding their economy is more or less proven wrong. I still remember a similar discussion on mp.net and we use to say the only brand in China at that time was "Made in China" 10 years later there are so many brands from China that we use them daily, a brand from China made in China.

 

[Junglejim]

I think you maybe painting the 'west' as one entity. Once upon a time the UK really did rule the world, then America, not really the same.

As to why go to other countries to fight, because we can, and it moves most of the fight away from our shores.

Obviously any country accused today of mistreating a minority or whatever, by a western nation, is going to throw empire building and killing the natives back. Doesnt make it right, then or now. Equally countries have to deal with issues, dont recall many countries worrying about Northern Ireland, other that soviets and americans sending weapons......

The whole China thing, they arent going to take over the world, nor run it, not make everything. I've said before, once people get to 'middle class' status, they prefer not to see it blown up, nor send their sons off to fight etc. as they dont have a spare son anymore. Once the cost to make something in china is 90% of the cost in Europe, the work will come back, to mostly robotic factories, while we all serve moccafrapechonis to each other.

Also just asking, if china really wanted to expand and conquer, Philippines would be high on the list, we kind off assume you'd like our assistance in terms of the South china sea islands etc? If we took the chinese request to get lost, really they are just asking to be allowed to bully you all into surrendering anything they are interested in, to them? dont you think? of course the benefit from us, is to tie up china for 20 years, in getting hold of some island with gas/oil under it, or whatever. Really same for Tiawan, we font give a s**t about tiawan, but it ties up the commies a bit longer.

The "West" as how Flagg states it. You might be fighting amongst yourselves but you are more or less a transatlantic block, and would go as far as Oceana. Japan and Korea would be an ancillary.

China will not take over the world but would definitely start stretching its power and influence and that would have a big impact on the Western domination. And yes the west dominates.

If China feels like taking over the Philippines, it is in their rights to do so. The West can either help build up the Philippines to stand on it own against China or just leave us alone. I prefer the latter... the Philippines needs to grow as a nation or it disappears as an entity.

 

[Jake84]

@Junglejim What is Duterte, who’s no teddy bear stance about China and the CCP and the disputed seas?

I reckon he once called Kim Jung Un a “Chubby fool”, although it’s a bit off topic here but what does the strongman of the Philippines think of almighty China?

 

[Picanha]

Huawei 5G is just one example of where the Chinese have the lead.

Granted, much of the early race was Huawei/MSS stealing tech from Cisco, Alcatel, Juniter without the R&D bills.

But now they are spending far more on R&D than their western counterparts with a complicit CCP/PLA government partner.

Refer to my previous comments about Combined arms/Cross domain competition.

We fight each other, they outcompete us.

I agree on the principle. And you are right on me viewing it doctrinally. I am just intrigued to know what has to be done to tweak our systems to better compete. And if theories of free market power and liberal societies will, again, prove superiour.

Because one has to face it there is no real competition. It is heavily one sided.

Just to stay at Huawei:

State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise​

China’s tech champion got as much as $75 billion in tax breaks, financing and cheap resources as it became the world’s top telecom vendor​

WSJ News Exclusive | State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise

Tens of billions of dollars in financial assistance from the Chinese government helped propel Huawei to the top of global telecommunications, a scale of support that dwarfed what its tech rivals got from their governments.

www.wsj.com

And they are not that much better than Ericsson or Nokia in telcom Hardware. Seems pretty exepensive and ineffective.

And generally the numbers of Chinese companies are not transparent and made public. So in reality nobody really knows whats going on there.



This game either plays out or not. But it is a gamble, shown by the huge growth numbers. They are almost so large that they seem manufactured and artifically kept at life.

Why Can't You Invest in Huawei? ​

Huawei is privately held by the company's China-based employees only, but anyone working for the company outside of China cannot buy into the company.3 The company's shareholders admit, however, that they don’t understand the company's structure, are not provided updated information on their holdings, and have no voting power. Thirty-three union members elect nine candidates to attend the annual shareholder meeting. Shareholders receive dividend payments, and they have the potential to earn bonuses based on performance. Their salaries also are reviewed on an annual Basis.


Just as an eaxmple North Korea and the eastern block also had large economic growth rates in the 50s and 60s measured by the then ultimate indicator of steel and heavy industry production.


An other field is the solar energy, China oustubsidised the German solar industry to a point where it wasn't sustainable anymore for them to produce and they vanished. Now this Industry is heavily subisdised in China. And continues to have to be subsidised to not increase consumer prices. A lot of waste is happening there. With lots of energy wasted because the grid is not sufficient to distribute the energy.

And despite this debacle an innovative company emerged in Europe producing HJT solar cells. Out of ist own without any state guidance.

Meyer Burger Technology AG | Premium solar modules

Premium solar cells and solar modules with up to 20 percent more energy yield. Developed in Switzerland, sustainably produced in Germany.

www.meyerburger.com

Then you had this organisation:

Home - SolarPower Europe

SolarPower Europe

www.solarpowereurope.org

It seems like they produce solarcells but they are just installers, they played a big role in aiding the state subsidised solar panel producers to dominate the market.

 

[Junglejim]

@Junglejim What is Duterte, who’s no teddy bear stance about China and the CCP and the disputed seas?

I reckon he once called Kim Jung Un a “Chubby fool”, although it’s a bit off topic here but what does the strongman of the Philippines think of almighty China?

He pushed for a centrist position for the Philippines and became more cordial and open to China. His line was "the west wont help and we cant win a war with China, so lets try and be friends with them." So now the opposition is painting him as a traitor. Nevermind that under his term Submarines, new Frigates and anti shipping missiles were fast tracked. It seems to me he is petting the dog while looking for a stick, but he is now seen as that way. The Philippine Navy has never been as aggressively present in the SCS as now. Though its seems to me the "presence of the Chinese" was more of a test on Biden.... the results was not expected by the Chinese i think. He is being called as a "chicom lapdog"

My stance is close to his position, where it differs would be it would be centered on the nation first. Everyone is an enemy, so the Armed Forces should be in that stance. Very "western" actually. Be polite, be courteous, be friendly and be prepared to kill everyone that you meet.

 

[Fluff]

He pushed for a centrist position for the Philippines and became more cordial and open to China. His line was "the west wont help and we cant win a war with China, so lets try and be friends with them." So now the opposition is painting him as a traitor. Nevermind that under his term Submarines, new Frigates and anti shipping missiles were fast tracked. It seems to me he is petting the dog while looking for a stick, but he is now seen as that way. The Philippine Navy has never been as aggressively present in the SCS as now. Though its seems to me the "presence of the Chinese" was more of a test on Biden.... the results was not expected by the Chinese i think. He is being called as a "chicom lapdog"

My stance is close to his position, where it differs would be it would be centered on the nation first. Everyone is an enemy, so the Armed Forces should be in that stance. Very "western" actually. Be polite, be courteous, be friendly and be prepared to kill everyone that you meet.

Subs are a good choice, Philippines isnt going to win an air war, but subs prevent invasion, even if we talk about a little island somewhere.

And politically a good option, Philippines isnt going to 'beat' China, better to sit on the sidelines and open a burger and rice stall.....

 

[Junglejim]

Subs are a good choice, Philippines isnt going to win an air war, but subs prevent invasion, even if we talk about a little island somewhere.

And politically a good option, Philippines isnt going to 'beat' China, better to sit on the sidelines and open a burger and rice stall.....

riiight?! jesus you should here the "woke opposition" here. "We should stand up to China, the US will defend us." "We shouldnt let an invader take any of our territories, thats why we should give back America their bases to defend us" The irony in that statement

We can't sit on the sidelines, its our freaking territory. So again, we either bloody their noses or we lose it completely.... I prefer we lose it out of our own actions than keeping it due to the "great powers." Not because I hate the west, but because it will ensure the nation will be a slave to it. America colonized our minds, which is far more damaging than the physical occupation.

 

[Jake84]

Yeah I stand with Duterte and JJ points here re:China and its threats.

It’s nice to be opposition and do the chest beating game, but when faced with the manpower and military strength of China, it’s best to be at the table for talks with them.

Trying to “compromise” is a difficult one especially for a sovereign country having a leader with an inflated ego but very few countries in Asia can by themselves challenge the PLA.

 

[Flagg]

riiight?! jesus you should here the "woke opposition" here. "We should stand up to China, the US will defend us." "We shouldnt let an invader take any of our territories, thats why we should give back America their bases to defend us" The irony in that statement

We can't sit on the sidelines, its our freaking territory. So again, we either bloody their noses or we lose it completely.... I prefer we lose it out of our own actions than keeping it due to the "great powers." Not because I hate the west, but because it will ensure the nation will be a slave to it. America colonized our minds, which is far more damaging than the physical occupation.

I blame MacArthur and a few of his aides like Willoughby.

Having read extensively about WWIi resistance in the Philippines, there was a huge opportunity lost to reset the relationship.

Instead of taking the harder right of genuine bottom up democratic reform, the easy wrong of supporting corrupt strong man/power families was made.

It’s worth mentioning that those good quality Chinese Norinco M14(M305) rifles available in recent years are a result of them originally being made then dumped in the Philippines to insurgents.

Even when weak and poor, China had a strong interest in fcuking with the Philippines. Similar to its very long term view in Africa with Zimbabwe(China was/is the only real winner), Zambia, and Tanzania going back to the 1960’s even during CCP China’s worst years.

It’s a shame how US/Philippine relations have developed and failed as they really are(or should be) quite natural partners at least with big picture themes such as countering Islam and a resurgent China.

It will be interesting to see how foreign relations develop between Philippines and India/Vietnam in particular akin to South Korea, and Australia/NZ(a few Anzacs there in recent years) as a kinder/gentler US coalition proxy.

I met a few of your high speed Coast Guard fellas a few years back. Great guys who were working very hard to manage Chinese incursions in your EEZ.

In closing, I think the Vietnamese are well worth watching closely in all this. They may be best positioned to fence sit between China/US as they have not been aligned with either in a lifetime.

The reason why I say this is because it’s not another Cold War.

It’s a ruthless competition between competing networks where the “war” is over which network offers the best value proposition to individuals/communities/countries and with much lower switching costs than during thr Cold War.

During the Cold War, one of the very few nations that switched was Somalia in the middle of the Ogaden War where superpowers swapped support to combatants in a very surreal way.

Today and tomorrow we are shifting along the continuum from “do what we tell you or else” towards “what’s in it for me/us?”

 

[Junglejim]

Yeah I stand with Duterte and JJ points here re:China and its threats.

It’s nice to be opposition and do the chest beating game, but when faced with the manpower and military strength of China, it’s best to be at the table for talks with them.

Trying to “compromise” is a difficult one especially for a sovereign country having a leader with an inflated ego but very few countries in Asia can by themselves challenge the PLA.

The best nations doing this with China is Indonesia, they have a good trade with them and actually share missile tech with China. They praise them and at the same time, burn their fishing boats when the Chinese gets out of line. Nobody screaming they are evil or the enemy, just sovereign nations doing sovereign nation S**t.

I blame MacArthur and a few of his aides like Willoughby.

Having read extensively about WWIi resistance in the Philippines, there was a huge opportunity lost to reset the relationship.

Instead of taking the harder right of genuine bottom up democratic reform, the easy wrong of supporting corrupt strong man/power families was made.

It’s worth mentioning that those good quality Chinese Norinco M14(M305) rifles available in recent years are a result of them originally being made then dumped in the Philippines to insurgents.

Even when weak and poor, China had a strong interest in fcuking with the Philippines. Similar to its very long term view in Africa with Zimbabwe(China was/is the only real winner), Zambia, and Tanzania going back to the 1960’s even during CCP China’s worst years.

It’s a shame how US/Philippine relations have developed and failed as they really are(or should be) quite natural partners at least with big picture themes such as countering Islam and a resurgent China.

It will be interesting to see how foreign relations develop between Philippines and India/Vietnam in particular akin to South Korea, and Australia/NZ(a few Anzacs there in recent years) as a kinder/gentler US coalition proxy.

I met a few of your high speed Coast Guard fellas a few years back. Great guys who were working very hard to manage Chinese incursions in your EEZ.

In closing, I think the Vietnamese are well worth watching closely in all this. They may be best positioned to fence sit between China/US as they have not been aligned with either in a lifetime.

The reason why I say this is because it’s not another Cold War.

It’s a ruthless competition between competing networks where the “war” is over which network offers the best value proposition to individuals/communities/countries and with much lower switching costs than during thr Cold War.

During the Cold War, one of the very few nations that switched was Somalia in the middle of the Ogaden War where superpowers swapped support to combatants in a very surreal way.

Today and tomorrow we are shifting along the continuum from “do what we tell you or else” towards “what’s in it for me/us?”

China has basically dismembered the ASEAN so its up to individual nations. Weirdly, the Philippines is the one nation that needs China the least and has small penetration in the fabrics of the country. Our country can decouple from China quite easily and Chinese embargoes didnt really dent our economy. The main aim for China against the Philippines is to pry it away from the American sphere, we are currently Americas satellite. Having Taiwan, Japan and the Philippines forming an American wall against the Chinese will always hinder their influence. So it needs to chip at that wall, China probably sees the Philippines as the weakest part of that wall.

Agree with you, this wont be a shooting war soon, but a war of influence. This is why I keep saying the US and my countrymen are playing Chess against an enemy thats playing checkers or a different board game all together. The Chinese built up their armed forces not to take on the world, but to have the ability to say "No" to the terms of the rest of the powers. "leave scs!" "No" "Free tibet and uighurs!" "No" etc.

The one ally that is often overlooked but is very much present in the country is Japan. Japan has been a part of the Philippine history since it started from tradesmen to farming to arming Philippine rebels against the Spaniards. Up to now, the lion share of our external loans and infra projects are funded by the Japanese.

China might be our friend according to Duterte, but it was Japan who ate breakfast at its home. Between the US, Japan, SoKor and China it is the Japanese that is treating us more as an independent nation, rather than a pet on a leash.

MacArthur, did what he did simply because it was never in their minds that the Philippines will independently stand on its own. When I was in the US, the history of the Philippines is just a paragraph or a page at most. Nevermind that it was a decades insurgency. Sadly, it was the US Army that told the senate that upon their initial investigation of the Philippine Republic fighting the Spaniards, the country was set to go at it on its own and the US should just assist it... that didnt fit the "white mans burden" scenario so was shelved.

 

[Junglejim]

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[Chazman]

The CCP is probing it's neighbors. Trying to see what it can get away with. Trying to see how united the front is. The pressure they are exerting on countries like Australia for example, is immense. Will Australia buckle? Will it's allies abandon it?

This all leads up to Taiwan. If the CCP wakes up one day and thinks, "no one will stop us", then it's game day. WWIII will start with a CCP miscalculation on Taiwan.

Regardless of the comments made here previously, the Pacific nations look to the United States for leadership and support on this. Even though the Biden Administration is completely compromised and infiltrated by the CCP, momentum still makes the US the most powerful player in the Pacific.

Could the Pacific nations resist Chicom expansion and control without US support?
That's a tough one, but probably not. Which brings up a whole cornucopia of issues. COVID leading to stolen US elections leading to friendly US administration. The CCP are playing for keeps. They are already at war with the world.

 

[primer]

Taxcinder and her foreign minister went along the lines of... finding it really hard to reconcile china's behavior these days.
Have to remember this was the party of the anti US nuke ship visits. The tantrum the put us out of ANZUS and achieved no change.
No tantrum over china though. We'll peer over the top of the trench though, cheers.

 

[Jake84]

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This guy has some guts, not sure how effective it’ll be prove to be but at least he get it off his chest.

 

[Chazman]

This guy has some guts, not sure how effective it’ll be prove to be but at least he get it off his chest.

I'll try to find the video later, but it was Chile or Brazil, anyway a South American country. The Coast Guard, after repeated warnings opened fire on a Chinese fishing ship - and sunk it. The CCP watched their step after that. Sometimes a bully requires a bloody nose.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

I'll try to find the video later, but it was Chile or Brazil, anyway a South American country. The Coast Guard, after repeated warnings opened fire on a Chinese fishing ship - and sunk it. The CCP watched their step after that. Sometimes a bully requires a bloody nose.

Where is the DGSE when you need them...

 

[Chazman]

It was Argentina.

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[Chazman]

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[primer]

Alibaba hasn't changed.

Minox german engineered scope, assembled in USA made in china...how many you need?

 

[Picanha]

I always tried to avoid that. Designed in Germany blabla… Minox has also scopes which are "Made in Germany".

I buy mostly not Chinese since like 20 years if I can avoid it. I know a lot of components come from China though.

But I also do not believe in the "new Chinese quality". Superficially it seems to be of good quality, but what after a few years?

You can avoid made in China quite easily, regarding cheaper appliances it gets complicated though.

But even then. They are selling small cutting wood plates here all made in China. Ist such a glued together S**t. It deforms and falls apart quite soon.

Now I bought some wooden plates made ouf of massive european maple wood. 1,90 € a piece at a large vendor.

My daughter built a hamster house out of the Chinese wood debris.

After our Chinese (initally good Quality Feeling) blender has quit its function after having to blend some frozen fruits, I invested in a Swiss blender, even the electric drive inside it is made in Switzerland. They mostly last for 20 years.

We are buying so much garbage its insane.