Politics All Things Trump

 
Peace deal signed.
That "peace deal" is an abomination; Trump's inflationary use of cringy superlatives isn't going to change that. The Taliban are going to violate the agreement the moment NATO's left the country and we will be powerless to stop them. And all the men and women who've lost their lives over there will have died in vain. A bloody shame.

Trump criticised the Iran nuclear agreement, and rightly so. Yet still he pushes for a deal with the Taliban under very similar circumstances: religious zealots, abiding by an ideology that makes them utterly untrustworthy, strive after absolute power and freedom of movement in their sphere of interests. They get all and we get none. It only goes to show he doesn't understand foreign politics.

All that's left for us is to hope America's learnt its lesson and won't start any more military interventions if it doesn't have the stomach to get the job done no matter how long it takes.
 
That "peace deal" is an abomination; Trump's inflationary use of cringy superlatives isn't going to change that. The Taliban are going to violate the agreement the moment NATO's left the country and we will be powerless to stop them. And all the men and women who've lost their lives over there will have died in vain. A bloody shame.

Trump criticised the Iran nuclear agreement, and rightly so. Yet still he pushes for a deal with the Taliban under very similar circumstances: religious zealots, abiding by an ideology that makes them utterly untrustworthy, strive after absolute power and freedom of movement in their sphere of interests. They get all and we get none. It only goes to show he doesn't understand foreign politics.

All that's left for us is to hope America's learnt its lesson and won't start any more military interventions if it doesn't have the stomach to get the job done no matter how long it takes.
19 years is a long time. A lot of blood, a lot of money. I don't see the point of continuing to pour more blood and more money into an endless war. I think you're probably right about the outcome, but I'm trying to think of a better solution and I can't.
 
That "peace deal" is an abomination; Trump's inflationary use of cringy superlatives isn't going to change that. The Taliban are going to violate the agreement the moment NATO's left the country and we will be powerless to stop them. And all the men and women who've lost their lives over there will have died in vain. A bloody shame.

Trump criticised the Iran nuclear agreement, and rightly so. Yet still he pushes for a deal with the Taliban under very similar circumstances: religious zealots, abiding by an ideology that makes them utterly untrustworthy, strive after absolute power and freedom of movement in their sphere of interests. They get all and we get none. It only goes to show he doesn't understand foreign politics.

All that's left for us is to hope America's learnt its lesson and won't start any more military interventions if it doesn't have the stomach to get the job done no matter how long it takes.

I hear what you're saying.

To "win" in Afghanistan would require committing genocide. No one is interested in that. The moment Bin Laden was shot in the face by SEAL Team 6, there was nothing else to gain there. It's been a long war, with thousands of US/NATO killed and maimed and over a trillion dollars spent. As far as I'm concerned, the whole place is not worth the life of another American.

The locals will de-evolve into their medieval ways in short order. Let them.
 
I hear what you're saying.

To "win" in Afghanistan would require committing genocide. No one is interested in that. The moment Bin Laden was shot in the face by SEAL Team 6, there was nothing else to gain there. It's been a long war, with thousands of US/NATO killed and maimed and over a trillion dollars spent. As far as I'm concerned, the whole place is not worth the life of another American.

The locals will de-evolve into their medieval ways in short order. Let them.
overall agree.

Any stepping over the line, will be covered by UAV's.

How they treat their women etc is ultimately upto the country/Government, I'm sure western countries can offer plenty of money to support moderate views.

I wont be booking a holiday to Kabul any site soon.
 
That "peace deal" is an abomination; Trump's inflationary use of cringy superlatives isn't going to change that. The Taliban are going to violate the agreement the moment NATO's left the country and we will be powerless to stop them. And all the men and women who've lost their lives over there will have died in vain. A bloody shame.

Trump criticised the Iran nuclear agreement, and rightly so. Yet still he pushes for a deal with the Taliban under very similar circumstances: religious zealots, abiding by an ideology that makes them utterly untrustworthy, strive after absolute power and freedom of movement in their sphere of interests. They get all and we get none. It only goes to show he doesn't understand foreign politics.

All that's left for us is to hope America's learnt its lesson and won't start any more military interventions if it doesn't have the stomach to get the job done no matter how long it takes.


Saying Trump does not understand foreign policy is a bold statement, if not coming from a misplaced sentiment of arrogance. Disagreeing with his decisions do not mean his decisions are bad and/or coming out of a magic ball.

The very idea of a Taliban “peace deal” is, indeed, something one can struggle with. Something a lot of veterans will struggle with, there is no doubt about it. We have the 9/11 generation, the GWOT babies, etc... settling with the Taliban will be a no go for many.

That being said, the war lasted for 19 years, claimed more than 2000 deaths and more than 20k wounded. A war with no real goal, with no real strategy, finding itself somewhere in between war on terrorism and nation building (which can't be done at the same time for obvious reasons). Accepting a drawdown without a "absolute victory" is a big no-no for some.
The thing is, that is a finite and limited mindset in a war that is nowhere near limited and finite. Expecting anything else is naive. The enemy made their intentions clear. Fighting Taliban, ISIS, Al Qaeda, or any other Jihadi-Salafist organization is fighting an ideology manifested as a physical enemy; and wars of ideas are rarely won in absolute terms.

There will not be a WW2 victory, you can remove that from your mind and dreams right now. The only way to "win", or mitigate, is an agreement. Without agreement, countless lives will be sent and lost for the years and decades to come. Meanwhile, other actors (Iran, Russia, Pakistan, etc...) will just enjoy the show and its results.
With an agreement there is a chance in witnessing an actual reduction in violence and negotiated settlement as a responsible conclusion to a conflict marred with many complexities near impossible to completely unpack.

Your “But what about all we’ve lost over the years?” is especially disingenuous and borderline offensive. I have lost friends and know people who have lost friends and family members. Trust me, I have not forgotten, and never will. Viewing lives of those who gave their lives as some sort of "sunk cost" is despicable, it only brings bitterness and regret. Would they want to see that conflict go on forever, or to go home and live our lives we dreamed of? You are not in position to answer it.

A drawdown in Afghanistan aligns with current policies and politics of Trump. “America first” is a slogan Trump believes in and “MAGA” doesn’t stand for “Make Afghanistan Great Again". Continued dabbling in Democratic Peace Theory and execution of the Powell Doctrine without a planned withdrawal has proven ineffective be it for societies or conflicts.

The US military is in a state of transition. After 19 years of counter-terrorism and counterinsurgency, there is now a rebalancing towards Great Power Competition, Multi-Domain Operations, Large Scale Combat Operations, etc... Resources expended in the Middle East have come at a cost to the US competitive advantage against near peer threats like China and Russia. Reinvestment in technology, innovation, and focus on the Indo-Pacific region are a necessity. The other "competitors" have adopted the previously mentioned "infinite mindsets" and are looking ahead, and it is time for the US to do so as well (well, not only the US in fact, Europe, as it turns out, is years if not decades behind).

That being said, shifting focus doesn’t mean or imply any form of safety from violent extremist organizations. Jihadists will not stop focusing on their objectives against the “far enemy” just because we have decided to move on.

All these years of fighting in Afghanistan have proven, among other things, that safe havens cannot be completely eliminated. Disturbed, yes, though. The ability to continue doing so with a reduced footprint, in concert with Afghan and foreign partners, will be part of the problem statement policy makers and military leaders have to sort out moving forward.

And, if you know anything about prospect theory and/or loss aversion it will be very hard to compromise on anything. However, if the Intra-Afghan Negotiations do indeed take hold, who are we to impose on a solution they collectively work out? It is their country and the Afghan people deserve a chance at peace.

Let's be satisfied with what has been done, and recognize that despite the enemy’s best efforts, there’s not been another 9/11.


I'd rather listen to actual veterans and/or people who got involved and/or took part in the whole thing.
 
Just a side note on something I read a few years ago, regarding A-Stan. The US has spent lavishly there as it mission creeped into nation building. There was a corrupt Afghan police chief who got into an altercation with a US Army officer about something. The Police Chief's actions were conditioned on US money rolling in. He stated to the interviewer that he can't wait for American troops to leave, so then the money would come unconditionally. He didn't understand that the money was American money and when US troops leave, that money is going with them.

Sums up the whole sh!t show.
 


Peace deal signed.

But I guess it's only Trump capitalizing on the momentum created by Obama.

I see in the article a bunch of stuff the USA has to do, but I can't see any mention of what the Taliban have to do?

Included in the deal:

  • Complete withdrawal of US and NATO troops from Afghanistan in 14 months
  • Afghan govt to engage with United Nations Security Council to remove Taliban members from sanctions list by 29 May
  • US to reduce troops in Afghanistan down to 8,600 from 13,000 in the next three to four months, with the remainder withdrawing in 14 months - contingent on the Taliban's fulfilment of its commitments
  • US to refrain from use of force against territorial integrity of Afghanistan
  • US will not intervene in Afghanistan's domestic affairs
  • US commits to seek annual funds to train, advice, equip Afghan security forces
So what is the US getting in return?
And I wonder how much and how long you'll be paying for the training and equiping?
 
^Was gonna say this. This “historic peace deal” sounds like a major victory for the Taliban, not much for the US.
 
I see in the article a bunch of stuff the USA has to do, but I can't see any mention of what the Taliban have to do?

Included in the deal:

  • Complete withdrawal of US and NATO troops from Afghanistan in 14 months
  • Afghan govt to engage with United Nations Security Council to remove Taliban members from sanctions list by 29 May
  • US to reduce troops in Afghanistan down to 8,600 from 13,000 in the next three to four months, with the remainder withdrawing in 14 months - contingent on the Taliban's fulfilment of its commitments
  • US to refrain from use of force against territorial integrity of Afghanistan
  • US will not intervene in Afghanistan's domestic affairs
  • US commits to seek annual funds to train, advice, equip Afghan security forces
So what is the US getting in return?
And I wonder how much and how long you'll be paying for the training and equiping?


The Taliban have agreed to sever ties with al-Qaida and other international terror groups and sit down for peace talks with other Afghans, including a government they have always denounced as a US puppet.
 

So the Taliban agree to sever ties with Al-Qaeda (and I assume all its many other affiliates) as well as I assume other internationally defined terror organizations, and sit down for peace talks (that may or may not result in a peace agreement), in exchange for a prisoner exchange (where the US doesn't actually hold the prisoners, and the party that does wasn't party to the peace talks), as well as the US leaving, not interfering in internal affairs (like maybe a civil war) and funding training and equipping of Afghan Security Forces (who ever might be controlling or claiming control of them).

Nope can't see this going sideways at all..........:rolleyes:
Part of me wonders if it should just be an emergency withdrawal (yes I know easier said than done), at least you would be left with options afterwards. This feels like US/Nato are getting there hands tied behind there back.

But can't stay there for ever.
 
I’m going to just say my gut feeling on this whole Taliban peace agreement is wary at best. Depending on your political views it may seem like a Trump camp move to gain media attention during the election season. Wouldn’t surprise me.
Have to think that this could be a win/in for US combat command anyway. Taliban is making the argument that the US is knee deep in Afghan affairs and needs to back off. US is leveraging a promise to stay in their lane from the Taliban. A withdrawal simply gets us our troops and resources back to reallocate to other areas if we need. (Syria maybe)
If the Taliban decides to step out of bounds they bring on the pre-agreed to spankings. This is assuming we have a CinC that has the combover to do something about it. On the other hand, Taliban stick to the agreement and they take over and run their own country further into the ground. OK. Not a win/win. Yup. Maybe just political maneuvering.
 
@Ivan & Co.

I trust you'll know I'm not a mindless Trump-basher. The man has done remarkable things for America's economy and internal security. But you're not going to convince me he understands diplomacy or international relations any better than a toddler in a sandbox fighting over his shovel. Trump leads America like he would a company; that's why he's successful in the fields mentioned initially. There, the costs and benefits are quantifiable.

Diplomacy, on the other hand, is a business done with a currency of an ideal, non-material kind – and America's been bleeding its reserves. Three years into his presidency, her international standing is the weakest in decades. Even those of us who wish America well and would like to see a strong America on the international stage have begun to take notice.

Trump's been so focused on his trade war with China his uncompromising stance has rendered America unable to combat the New Silk Road, which is sure to damage America's foreign trade and replace Washington as the go-to-address for countries from East Asia all the way to Southern Europe. In fact, scores of countries once firmly in America's sphere of influence have flocked to Beijing (and Moscow) already. They welcome Chinese rather than American investors. They trade with China instead of America. They buy Russian rather than American arms.

His ill-disguised power plays to further America's economic interests have angered key allies and all but destroyed America's ability to determine the course of the West on issues such as Iran. Along with many more lone-hands like the unilateral withdrawal from the Paris Accords, it's put America's trustworthiness as a contracting party in question.

The Iran Nuclear Deal had to go, but it couldn't go without a replacement. Trump's failure to coordinate with America's allies created the most unlikely of alliances, bringing the UK, France and the EU to align with Russia as well as China to actively undermine America's Iran policy. Heck, when was the last time the entire permanent members' bench of the Security Council opposed America?

Trump's negotiations with North Korea have made the country more powerful than ever before. By shutting down America's age-old firewall against the Norks and recognizing Kim Jong-Un as an equal, Trump's gifted him with an unassailable position, ensuring he'll rule for life in his father's image. Furthermore, simply by virtue of opening Kim's access to Washington, Trump robbed China of her ability to put the stops on Pyongyang, an ability which used to come in handy.

The South, on the other hand, has begun to doubt America's commitment to preserving the status quo on the peninsula. For a bit of PR at home, Trump went so far as to risk losing Seoul as a key partner to check China's advance in the South China Sea.

Trump's ruined any resemblance of a coherent strategy on Syria, allowing the West to be one-upped by Putin and causing Turkey, a key ally with the alliance's biggest army after America's, to break ranks and fawn on Russia. As if that were not enough, he's sacrificed the Kurds, undermining America's potential to use local non-government powers to her advantage in the future. Now, we have another major conflict looming in Northern Syria that could've easily been avoided at the little-most of costs.

And now that Trump's apparently remembered he ran on an isolationist ticket, he's willing to feed Afghanistan to the Taliban again in exchange for no securities at all.

This will be another Vietnam; the major distinction being the Vietnamese primarily sought territorial consolidation, whereas the Taliban abide by the very same aggressive ideology that Mr. Trump said rules out Iran as a reliable negotiation partner. Do you genuinely not see the irony? No, they will rule again, enslave the country and harbour all sorts of terrorists. And they will, again, create a need for the West to intervene.

The Taliban are not freedom fighters. They're hatred by everyone in Afghanistan but the Pashtuns. They continue to fight everyone but the Pashtuns. They've got no reason at all – not even the resemblance of an incentive – to fulfill their promise and cooperate with the other parties to this civil war so as to advance the welfare of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

And once they sit firmly in the saddle again, they'll rub their eyes in disbelief, for the military equipment sent to Afghanistan and NATO's development efforts there are going to render them more powerful and capable of projecting power than ever before. They will do their utmost to destabilize Pakistan and perhaps even the Islamic parts of India, putting the entire region at jeopardy.

This "great historic deal" marks no path into the future. It sets the clock back to 1996.

By the way, thanks in advance @TheRealDonaldTrump for the waves of refugees which we're going to have to host again.

My friends, you can't shrug off every criticism of Trump as Trump-bashing or fake news. It's simply make-believe to pretend America's not isolated on the international stage, or that Trump's not had a record of shooting himself in the foot.
 
So the Taliban agree to sever ties with Al-Qaeda (and I assume all its many other affiliates) as well as I assume other internationally defined terror organizations, and sit down for peace talks (that may or may not result in a peace agreement), in exchange for a prisoner exchange (where the US doesn't actually hold the prisoners, and the party that does wasn't party to the peace talks), as well as the US leaving, not interfering in internal affairs (like maybe a civil war) and funding training and equipping of Afghan Security Forces (who ever might be controlling or claiming control of them).

Nope can't see this going sideways at all..........:rolleyes:
Part of me wonders if it should just be an emergency withdrawal (yes I know easier said than done), at least you would be left with options afterwards. This feels like US/Nato are getting there hands tied behind there back.

But can't stay there for ever.
I'm wondering if this is an emergency withdrawal....dressed up with a peace deal....
 
@Ivan & Co.

I trust you'll know I'm not a mindless Trump-basher. The man has done remarkable things for America's economy and internal security. But you're not going to convince me he understands diplomacy or international relations any better than a toddler in a sandbox fighting over his shovel. Trump leads America like he would a company; that's why he's successful in the fields mentioned initially. There, the costs and benefits are quantifiable.

Diplomacy, on the other hand, is a business done with a currency of an ideal, non-material kind – and America's been bleeding its reserves. Three years into his presidency, her international standing is the weakest in decades. Even those of us who wish America well and would like to see a strong America on the international stage have begun to take notice.

Trump's been so focused on his trade war with China his uncompromising stance has rendered America unable to combat the New Silk Road, which is sure to damage America's foreign trade and replace Washington as the go-to-address for countries from East Asia all the way to Southern Europe. In fact, scores of countries once firmly in America's sphere of influence have flocked to Beijing (and Moscow) already. They welcome Chinese rather than American investors. They trade with China instead of America. They buy Russian rather than American arms.

His ill-disguised power plays to further America's economic interests have angered key allies and all but destroyed America's ability to determine the course of the West on issues such as Iran. Along with many more lone-hands like the unilateral withdrawal from the Paris Accords, it's put America's trustworthiness as a contracting party in question.

The Iran Nuclear Deal had to go, but it couldn't go without a replacement. Trump's failure to coordinate with America's allies created the most unlikely of alliances, bringing the UK, France and the EU to align with Russia as well as China to actively undermine America's Iran policy. Heck, when was the last time the entire permanent members' bench of the Security Council opposed America?

Trump's negotiations with North Korea have made the country more powerful than ever before. By shutting down America's age-old firewall against the Norks and recognizing Kim Jong-Un as an equal, Trump's gifted him with an unassailable position, ensuring he'll rule for life in his father's image. Furthermore, simply by virtue of opening Kim's access to Washington, Trump robbed China of her ability to put the stops on Pyongyang, an ability which used to come in handy.

The South, on the other hand, has begun to doubt America's commitment to preserving the status quo on the peninsula. For a bit of PR at home, Trump went so far as to risk losing Seoul as a key partner to check China's advance in the South China Sea.

Trump's ruined any resemblance of a coherent strategy on Syria, allowing the West to be one-upped by Putin and causing Turkey, a key ally with the alliance's biggest army after America's, to break ranks and fawn on Russia. As if that were not enough, he's sacrificed the Kurds, undermining America's potential to use local non-government powers to her advantage in the future. Now, we have another major conflict looming in Northern Syria that could've easily been avoided at the little-most of costs.

And now that Trump's apparently remembered he ran on an isolationist ticket, he's willing to feed Afghanistan to the Taliban again in exchange for no securities at all.

This will be another Vietnam; the major distinction being the Vietnamese primarily sought territorial consolidation, whereas the Taliban abide by the very same aggressive ideology that Mr. Trump said rules out Iran as a reliable negotiation partner. Do you genuinely not see the irony? No, they will rule again, enslave the country and harbour all sorts of terrorists. And they will, again, create a need for the West to intervene.

The Taliban are not freedom fighters. They're hatred by everyone in Afghanistan but the Pashtuns. They continue to fight everyone but the Pashtuns. They've got no reason at all – not even the resemblance of an incentive – to fulfill their promise and cooperate with the other parties to this civil war so as to advance the welfare of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

And once they sit firmly in the saddle again, they'll rub their eyes in disbelief, for the military equipment sent to Afghanistan and NATO's development efforts there are going to render them more powerful and capable of projecting power than ever before. They will do their utmost to destabilize Pakistan and perhaps even the Islamic parts of India, putting the entire region at jeopardy.

This "great historic deal" marks no path into the future. It sets the clock back to 1996.

By the way, thanks in advance @TheRealDonaldTrump for the waves of refugees which we're going to have to host again.

My friends, you can't shrug off every criticism of Trump as Trump-bashing or fake news. It's simply make-believe to pretend America's not isolated on the international stage, or that Trump's not had a record of shooting himself in the foot.
Overall I agree, but whats the alternative?

Option 1 overwhelming force, as someone said earlier, genocide isn't really an option.

option 2 muddle on, lose another 300 people a year, and pump in a few $BN? For how long? Where would it end?

option 3 get our people out, and let the Afghans sort it out.

I would agree Trump looks at things like a business, but you can put a price on lives, and I think he has looked at it, and this is the least worst option.

Give us another option.....

Also the conditions do not prevent drone strikes, and personally I believe drones, sigint, good old fashioned spying etc will 'contain' any future Taliban adventures, as will rapid i.e. Hellfire promotions to martyrdom.

And of course, this isn't a great historic deal, its a retreat, sometimes you have to retreat. Trump didn't start this war, he said he would get the yanks out, and it would appear today, that he is on with it.

As always, the great Irish saying 'Well I wouldnt start from here' comes to mind.....
 
Just a side note on something I read a few years ago, regarding A-Stan. The US has spent lavishly there as it mission creeped into nation building. There was a corrupt Afghan police chief who got into an altercation with a US Army officer about something. The Police Chief's actions were conditioned on US money rolling in. He stated to the interviewer that he can't wait for American troops to leave, so then the money would come unconditionally. He didn't understand that the money was American money and when US troops leave, that money is going with them.

Sums up the whole sh!t show.
I had some exposure to Iraq, I had the same view, it was simply a way to get $$ from uncle sam. Turn off the tap, see what happens.
 
I had some exposure to Iraq, I had the same view, it was simply a way to get $$ from uncle sam. Turn off the tap, see what happens.
The problem is that it appears this is option 3 but without being able to turn the tap off and not being allowed back in the room.

I hope I'm wrong but.......
Then again what does "winning" look like with Afghanistan?
I guess only the Afghan's will be able to tell us...... in time.
 
The problem is that it appears this is option 3 but without being able to turn the tap off and not being allowed back in the room.

I hope I'm wrong but.......
Then again what does "winning" look like with Afghanistan?
I guess only the Afghan's will be able to tell us...... in time.

There is no "winning" possible in Afghanistan.
The war in Afghanistan cannot be won.

Limited and clearly defined objectives can be set and achieved. But this war, as it is, cannot be won.
It has been fueled with vague and ill-defined reasons and with "on-the-go" updates.


Same things goes with Syria, since it has been brought up. The US intervention in Syria was not subject to any coherent and comprehensive strategy and/or plan. As a matter of fact Syria was even less clear than Afghanistan.
Fighting Assad? Fighting ISIS/Daesh? Intimidating Russia? In other words: being at war with every body while trying not to.

And as for the "refugees", how is that Trump's fault again?
This crisis was not started by the Trump's administration. And the responsible administration had no plan, whatsoever, to deal with the issue.
The amount of refugees/migrants has been persistently declining since 2016. Is it thanks to Trump? Probably not, but at least the situation has not been made worse.
The possibly soon to happen refugees/migrants tidal wave from Syria is not of Trump's making.

I mean, come on muck...! You have the Turkish state TV publishing maps to tell migrants where to go and how to get there, but somehow you think this is Trump's fault?
 
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