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[Picanha]

Fitting to this Topic:

Airbus and Dassault seem to improve cooperation on the FCAS. Eliminating the most substantial hurdles, which nearly brought the project to a halt.

The lead roles in the seven pillars are newly conceived. Accepting the partners rolses in it and moving away from the strict percentage share. Instead it will be put morey emphasis on using the best technology.

The seven pillars are:

Next Generation Fighter, NGF

Engine

Remote carriers

Combat cloud

System of systems

Stealth technology

Sensors

The project cost of the nuclear capable (Have to hide that from the Germans ) system will be between 100 and up to 500 bill. €.

Handelsblatt

www.handelsblatt.com

 

[muck]

Please leave the Austrians out of this.......

Lol, my bad.

Boris clearly is a big spender, so many kids, so many ex-lovers, problem with cutting infantry is that they are cheap, and you get kicked every time the number goes down, 10,000 troops at 40K a head, is 400M, thats 0.01% of the defense budget. That wont get the new toilet seat for tempest designed, let alone made for that.

Yeah, but politicians don't realise that. No matter where you look in the Western world, land forces and land systems is where most cuts have been made since 1990 even though they're comparatively cheap to operate. Just look at main battle tanks, a land force's primary weapon system. The most expensive thing in the operational history of an MBT is its ammunition.

Lets keep in mind, UK designed Typhoon on our own, and let the germans and italians in to share the costs. So as the only other company that could possibly design a whole aircraft in Dassault in France, UK can get this done. There will be foreign buyers, and partners, so export sales should be good.

I assume you're referring to the BAe EAP … The EAP integrated the technologies necessary for the new aircraft into a single platform, a crucial prerequiste saving billions and years of work; but it's not identical with the Typhoon nor were the technologies combined therein designed by the UK entirely "on [your] own".

The plane that we know today was developed and built by BAe (33%), DASA (33%), Alenia (21%) and CASA (13%). It's technology draws from multiple sources, particularly the Rockwell-MBB X-31 to name only one; and even the French injected their genes into the bird before their departure from the programme.

But's it's not the expertise that's the issue here … the UK certainly does have it … but funding. As the price gap even between the EAP and the Typhoon serves to illustrate. As far as costs go, have not Sweden and Italy joined the Tempest programme? And Spain is now set to join the Franco-German FCAS. The fact is, no European nation can fund a 6th Gen fighter jet on its own.

Well, technically they could, but not with the priorities we're setting. Both Tempest and FCAS are expected to clock in at north of €100 bn each. Just to get the thing in the air, that is. And Tempest is far from being the only achievement the UK has in mind. That's why I deem the Times's conclusion – that future projects will make significant cuts unavoidable – fairly realistic, I have to say.

Very hard to trim the RAF any further, I dont understand us only having 3 awacs, but maybe a drone is planned to help out in a few years? The typhoon's offered up are presumably air to air only, which we dont really need, if we have newer multirole typhoons, and F35's as well.

Yeah, I had to make that clearer in my post that this was conjecture on my part; the article mentions that 24 older Typhoons will be retired early. (See also this source.) Given the age gap between the F2 and the FGA4 I find it hard to believe they could be considering to retire anything else. Unless there's some advantage to keeping F2's in service that I failed to see.

As for the F-35B, I guess I could be convinced it is about the only drastic cut that makes some sense – if politically-mandated drastic cuts can make sense, that is. Focusing the existing fleet on serving on your carriers to make the most out of their abilities as precision strike fighters while you wait for Tempest to mature isn't the worst idea ever conceived.

In the meantime, the Typhoon can protect Britain's skies quite fine; there, low observable technology would be an overkill in the light of operational procedures. Even foreign military aircraft visiting e.g. the Baltics must be identified visually. And should a Su-35 ever decide to duke it out with the F-35 shadowing it, I wouldn't want to be the pilot of the latter. The aircraft just wasn't designed for that role.

Maybe someone will buy them?

Buy the Typhoons, you mean? I'd say Austria could be interested in buying them if Vienna wasn't in full-on hatred mode against Airbus and the aircraft itself. The entirety of Austria seems convinced the aircraft is merely a steaming pile of poo, although they ought to blame their own government for stripping the finished product of its vital components.

Indonesia showed some interest in buying Austria's (older) Typhoons a couple of months ago; so, they could arrive on your doorstep as well. Having said that, it remains to be seen how serious the Austrian offer even was. Indonesia has knocked on many doors as of late, despite already operating a rather … international … air force. Much to their logisticians' despair, I'dm imagine.

 

[Fluff]

Lol, my bad.

Yeah, but politicians don't realise that. No matter where you look in the Western world, land forces and land systems is where most cuts have been made since 1990 even though they're comparatively cheap to operate. Just look at main battle tanks, a land force's primary weapon system. The most expensive thing in the operational history of an MBT is its ammunition.

I assume you're referring to the BAe EAP … The EAP integrated the technologies necessary for the new aircraft into a single platform, a crucial prerequiste saving billions and years of work; but it's not identical with the Typhoon nor were the technologies combined therein designed by the UK entirely "on [your] own".

The plane that we know today was developed and built by BAe (33%), DASA (33%), Alenia (21%) and CASA (13%). It's technology draws from multiple sources, particularly the Rockwell-MBB X-31 to name only one; and even the French injected their genes into the bird before their departure from the programme.

But's it's not the expertise that's the issue here … the UK certainly does have it … but funding. As the price gap even between the EAP and the Typhoon serves to illustrate. As far as costs go, have not Sweden and Italy joined the Tempest programme? And Spain is now set to join the Franco-German FCAS. The fact is, no European nation can fund a 6th Gen fighter jet on its own.

Well, technically they could, but not with the priorities we're setting. Both Tempest and FCAS are expected to clock in at north of €100 bn each. Just to get the thing in the air, that is. And Tempest is far from being the only achievement the UK has in mind. That's why I deem the Times's conclusion – that future projects will make significant cuts unavoidable – fairly realistic, I have to say.

Yeah, I had to make that clearer in my post that this was conjecture on my part; the article mentions that 24 older Typhoons will be retired early. (See also this source.) Given the age gap between the F2 and the FGA4 I find it hard to believe they could be considering to retire anything else. Unless there's some advantage to keeping F2's in service that I failed to see.

As for the F-35B, I guess I could be convinced it is about the only drastic cut that makes some sense – if politically-mandated drastic cuts can make sense, that is. Focusing the existing fleet on serving on your carriers to make the most out of their abilities as precision strike fighters while you wait for Tempest to mature isn't the worst idea ever conceived.

In the meantime, the Typhoon can protect Britain's skies quite fine; there, low observable technology would be an overkill in the light of operational procedures. Even foreign military aircraft visiting e.g. the Baltics must be identified visually. And should a Su-35 ever decide to duke it out with the F-35 shadowing it, I wouldn't want to be the pilot of the latter. The aircraft just wasn't designed for that role.

Buy the Typhoons, you mean? I'd say Austria could be interested in buying them if Vienna wasn't in full-on hatred mode against Airbus and the aircraft itself. The entirety of Austria seems convinced the aircraft is merely a steaming pile of poo, although they ought to blame their own government for stripping the finished product of its vital components.

Indonesia showed some interest in buying Austria's (older) Typhoons a couple of months ago; so, they could arrive on your doorstep as well. Having said that, it remains to be seen how serious the Austrian offer even was. Indonesia has knocked on many doors as of late, despite already operating a rather … international … air force. Much to their logisticians' despair, I'dm imagine.

Hopefully its a 100Mn, not 100Bn...

Clearly thats what any aircraft is going to cost, so we either buy more F35 and make the tailfins for them all, or we keep in the game and gt some export orders, which clearly make a big profit, as its doesnt cost 100M to build an extra aircraft, once you have designed it.

on the F35 effectively the Harrier GR5 replacement is axed - makes sense, we dont have the pilots, the need, and Russia isnt coming through the Fulda gap - Poland will have made them into scrap metal long before. I guess flying top cover to allow the poles to do this, is probably more worthwhile for us.

Austria couldnt get rid of Typhoons, then buy used typhoons, surely? I think UK would not want to get involved with such a 'poor' buyer. Can you imagine the screams if it was found that one of the aircraft once bombed some poor flip-flop wearer?

Lets see what happens, as Boris and Richi seem to have finally found that elusive magic money tree.

 

[muck]

Hopefully its a 100Mn, not 100Bn...

Bad choice of words on my part. Who knows what a single operational aircraft will cost, but the system costs (i.e. development + procurement + life cycle costs) will be eye-watering. Personally, I'd rather Germany had joined "Team Tempest". Competition facilitates innovation, but from a fiscal view point it's madness to try and run two such programmes simultaneously.

Alas, NATO will never manage to order a single fighter type, despite the huge cost savings inherent in such a scheme. I mean, many countries would be quite happy to do that … if their industry gets the lion's share of the value created and their tactical needs are treated as paramount.

Clearly thats what any aircraft is going to cost, so we either buy more F35 and make the tailfins for them all, or we keep in the game and gt some export orders, which clearly make a big profit, as its doesnt cost 100M to build an extra aircraft, once you have designed it.

Export orders will help to amortize the project, but for any amortization to be going on someone has to spring the bill first: the tax payer. I'm not sure if Britain's defence budget can plug that gap.

on the F35 effectively the Harrier GR5 replacement is axed - makes sense, we dont have the pilots, the need, and Russia isnt coming through the Fulda gap - Poland will have made them into scrap metal long before. I guess flying top cover to allow the poles to do this, is probably more worthwhile for us.

Indeed. And keeping the North Sea clear from sneaky submarines.

Austria couldnt get rid of Typhoons, then buy used typhoons, surely? I think UK would not want to get involved with such a 'poor' buyer. Can you imagine the screams if it was found that one of the aircraft once bombed some poor flip-flop wearer?

Austria is one of the richest countries in the world; they're just cheap when it comes to their military. Much cheaper even than the Germans, and that's quite the achievement. It would make a lot of sense for them to buy British F2's, and that's why Vienna won't do it. (They could be interested in purchasing your retired C-130's, though.)

Back in the day, they'd ordered a stripped-down version of the Typhoon. A version that's really only suitable to get in the air fast, catch up with an airliner that didn't talk to air traffic control for a while, and wag their wings at them. They also converted half their order for a bunch of second-hand Typhoons which the Germans had only intended as a stopgap solution for pilot training. That way, they saved about €1bn.

And now they're complaining about the necessity to finally invest some money into the fleet. Acutely aware of that narrative's appeal with both the anti-EU right and left-wing anti-militarists and isolationists alike, their government has been cleverly deflecting the blame for the fiasco by accusing the manufacturer of corruption. They continue to do so despite Austria's top courts having struck down such accusations repeatedly.

Lets see what happens, as Boris and Richi seem to have finally found that elusive magic money tree.

You think they'd let us in on their little secret?

 

[Picanha]

The problem with countries like Austria is that they are located very comfortably inbetween other friendly countries with air forces.

Naturally only some large corporations get all the money from such projects. But they are also the only ones capable of doing so.

In the end all need to spend a bit for common security.

Otherwise we could leave an air corridor open to Austria for any country wanting to bomb it

 

[muck]

The United States has approved a German request to buy 5 Boeing P-8A maritime patrol aircraft at a cost of $1.77 bn. The deal is to include further equipment like radars, electro-optical sensors and mission software. (Source, English) The German Navy has an urgent requirement to replace her P-3C MPA's after a service-life extension project had revealed that keeping the ageing fleet operational would be highly uneconomical.

 

[Deleted member 11302]

Daily Frankfurter Allgemeine reports that the German Ministry of Defence believes that Haenel has violated patents belonging to rival Heckler&Koch. As a consequence, the company is expelled from the tender. Haenel has already announced its intention to take both the MoD and H&K to court. Whether or not this turn of events means that the latter will be awarded the contract is not known at this point. (Source, German)

At this point I just want this entire affair to be over, already. The HK416 is an excellent rifle, proven to be sturdy and reliable, not to mention already adopted by several countries. Start production and hand them to the troops.

 

[muck]

At this point I just want this entire affair to be over, already. The HK416 is an excellent rifle, proven to be sturdy and reliable, not to mention already adopted by several countries. Start production and hand them to the troops.

Haenel's taking all those sweet Arab petrol dollars and prepares to throw the book at Dr. Heckler & Mr. Koch, though. This charade will go on, and it'll be a gift that keeps on giving.

 

[muck]

The government of Denmark has announced that a Danish Absalon class frigate will steam to West Africa later this year in order to confront pirates operating in the Gulf of Guinea. The warship will remain on station during the winter, the "high season" of piracy in the area. The Gulf of Guinea has seen an increase in armed attacks in recent years, with three Danish merchant vessels attacked over the past few months. (Source, English)

The French government has offered to lend four upgraded Atlantique 2 maritime patrol aircraft to the German Navy as a stop-gap measure pending the introduction of the future MAWS MPA. The offer succeeds an American approval of a potential sale of five P-8A to Germany. Last year, it had emerged that Germany's fleet of P-3C's cannot undergo service-life extension measures anymore and needs replacing. (Source, French)

 

[Picanha]

The fight for the MAWS. I am divided on this one. Sure it is nice to have everything "homemade" but I also think not everything needs to be.

Initially I was pro MAWS. But I don't know, they already take forever "studying" it. The P-8 is already in use with NATO Partners UK and Norway.

And it could become NATO standard for LR patrols.

I am happy that the German Navy decides to go this way. LR patrols are the needed thing in the future. For the North Atlantic and Pacific mainly.

They also offer much needed land scanning sensors.

Maybe you could appease Airbus by buying also some smaller types as the C295 MPA or the RAS 72? Could be used in the Med and Baltic sea...

 

[muck]

Sure it is nice to have everything "homemade" but I also think not everything needs to be.

It wouldn't have to be homemade if ITAR didn't exist. The past four years with a highly erratic administration at the helm have illustrated this increasingly becoming an issue. You cannot act in a truly sovereign manner if threatened with sanctions should you deploy your own military equipment without asking the U.S. State Department for permission first. Which is a weird requirement to impose upon an ally.

Initially I was pro MAWS. But I don't know, they already take forever "studying" it. The P-8 is already in use with NATO Partners UK and Norway.

As a concept, MAWS differs from Poseidon's hence all the studying. Though I'd argue that difference isn't nearly big enough. (Read on below.)

Maybe you could appease Airbus by buying also some smaller types as the C295 MPA or the RAS 72? Could be used in the Med and Baltic sea...

The C-295 seems like a neat choice to patrol the Baltic Sea. It lacks the range for meaningful forays into more distant waters, though. As for the RAS 72, Airbus couldn't care less about that aircraft. Neither could we, I'm afraid. I'd love to hear what experiences the Pakistanis have had with it, but the manufacturer is tiny. Who knows if they'll be around ten years from now, leaving you stranded without manufacturer's support.

Truth be told, MAWS strikes me as one of the more reasonable projects begun as of late, especially with the growing threat of unmanned underwater vehicles (like Russia's Status-6) and the increased reliance of modern warships on airborne anti-submarine warfare capacities. I mean, they've begun to build surface combatants without torpedo launchers now, reasoning a modern submarine could hit them first anyway.

Personally, I don't like the idea of MAWS being based on a civilian twin-engine airliner. Poseidon has that same weakness. Both aircraft can't fly low and slow (which would improve their detection ability); and their capacity to store both sensors and efforts is greatly reduced by the airframe's inability to deny its holiday airliner genes.

I'd love to see them take a page out of Kawasaki's book. The P-1 is the only modern pure-bred submarine hunter in existence right now. The MAWS team should at least consider using the A400M-airframe. It has a rear ramp, four engines and can cruise smoothly at low altitudes even in adverse weather conditions.

 

[muck]

A German armed forces strategy paper has informed lawmakers that the Luftwaffe will postpone the planned purchase of a new long-range surface-to-air missile defence system in favour of an upgrade for the existing Patriot system. Due to the upgrade, new long-range assets are no longer a priority. Instead, the air force wants to fast-track building up a short-range defence umbrella against aircraft, drones and missiles.

Citing threats highlighted by the Nagorno-Karabakh War, the air force seeks to acquire a short-range system based on the IRIS-T SLS/SLM missile as quickly as possible, succeeded by self-propelled anti-air guns and anti-drone laser systems. The initial operational capability of the umbrella is to be reached in mid-2025 at a cost of some €5.3 bn. The air force calculates with an initial body of about 2,000 personnel. (Source, German)

Assigning ground-based air defence to the air force, even in the case of mobile units? That's weird. Good to hear they're taking this seriously, though. (Of course it'd have been better and cheaper if they'd never shelved the Gepard SPAAG in the first place.)

 

[BCNTM]

Weapons-testing expert accidentally shot in NECK at army firing range

A CIVILIAN weapons-testing expert is fighting for his life after being accidentally shot in the neck at an army firing range. Quick-thinking troops are said to have dashed to the man’s aid be…

www.thesun.co.uk

possibly also cauterized all the way through

 

[Fluff]

Weapons-testing expert accidentally shot in NECK at army firing range

A CIVILIAN weapons-testing expert is fighting for his life after being accidentally shot in the neck at an army firing range. Quick-thinking troops are said to have dashed to the man’s aid be…

www.thesun.co.uk

possibly also cauterized all the way through

Very 'unlucky' and very lucky.

I'm struggling with the shooting or indeed looking position, that gets a gun against your neck - other than looking down the barrel.......

maybe a testing expert, but not a handling expert?

I hope he survives relatively unscathed, and gets to survive the next 20 years of piss taking.

This is Reg, the only weapons expert to shoot himself....

 

[BCNTM]

Very 'unlucky' and very lucky.

I'm struggling with the shooting or indeed looking position, that gets a gun against your neck - other than looking down the barrel.......

maybe a testing expert, but not a handling expert?

I hope he survives relatively unscathed, and gets to survive the next 20 years of piss taking.

This is Reg, the only weapons expert to shoot himself....

Might all be smoke and mirrors

 

[Fluff]

Might all be smoke and mirrors

oHHHHHH.

Damn, thats going to sting.

 

[muck]

The Austrian Ministry of Defence has announced an investment in the country's dwindling mechanised troops. However, as merely 14 tanks and 28 infantry fighting vehicles are to be upgraded, observers view the announcement as an overture to the long-rumoured push to demobilise the Federal Army's remaining heavy weapons and operate merely a token force for skill preservation. (Source, Austrian)

Germany's parliament has approved a procurement contract for 11,000 Heckler&Koch MG5 medium machine guns. Deliveries will be made in three configurations: general purpose, remote control mounts and light infantry. At least 18,000 are to replace the Rheinmetall MG3 machine gun in those roles in which it has not already been supplanted by the MG4 light machine gun (likewise produced by Heckler&Koch). (Source, German)

 

[Mike1976]

Assigning ground-based air defence to the air force, even in the case of mobile units? That's weird.

Back to the good ol' days of the German armed forces when the Wehrmacht had Luftwaffe FlaK units attached to their formations

Might all be smoke and mirrors

That's what you get for saying that "the Haenel is just as good as the H&K" with your normal voice instead of whispering.

 

[Picanha]

Well it isn't so weird as you need a complete air data picture, which the air force has. It also only works in a layered defense system, as the range of purely gun based system is not enough to give protection from longer range weapons launched from UAVs.

What I find more disturbing is that nobody thought about it before. I mean you have cheap UAVs launching weapons undetected what is there to worry about?

But I think the ground forces need a mobile system too, operating autonomous or even able to connect to the air forces network. Otherwise it will be pretty hard for advancing forces. Or you can somehow push the protection dome forwards with them.

Oerlikon is offering the Skynex

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[Fish&Chips]

Oerlikon is offering the Skynex

The makers of the Cold War "Star Wars program" where satellites were supposed to zap incoming ICBMs would have loved this.