Why not? We are young and free to speak about anything we like.
Anyway I couldn't find any reference to a state called ukraine before beginning of the 20th century.
>Why not? We are young and free to speak about anything we like.
Sure, whatever you say, buddy.
>Anyway I couldn't find any reference to a state called ukraine before beginning of the 20th century.
Now-now, do not get coy with me. We were speaking about nations/people, not states. They do not mean the same thing. Do not confuse those, it is a mauvais ton. The fact that some specific name of state did not exist before does not mean that people going by this ethnonym (Ukrainians ) today did not. Especially if they went by it not only today, but many centuries before. And it does not mean they haven't had a state under a different name. If you have not found anything about Ukrainians before 20th century then that means you need to go back and read more. Many notes about Ukrainians and Ukraine date back to 18-17th century and earlier. Just in case, I think that there is no need to explain that different nations and states/lands can be called differently, depending on the side that wrote history, historical period and the perspective.
Let’s go through the examples of Ukrainians and Ukraine.
e.g Probably the most common one –
“Description d’Ukranie, qui sont plusieurs provinces du Royaume de Pologne. Contenues depuis les confins de la Moscovie, iusques aux limites de la Transilvanie”, 1660. “Description of Ukraine which constitutes some provinces in the Kingdom of Poland”, plus other maps and works by Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan 1651 and 1649).
So yeah, you know, debatably Ukrainians have more in common with Poles than with russinans, not that their relations are much better.
- “Das Nord-und Ostliche Theil von Europa und Asia”, published 1730, by Philip Johan von Strahlenberg – a Swedish army officer, later ethnographer, that spent 13 years as a POW after the battle of Poltava (1709)
https://books.google.com.ua/books?hl=uk&id=EPMOAAAAQAAJ&q=Ukrainer#v=snippet&q=Ukraine&f=false
Page 42, paragraph 2: “On the present day Malorossiyan/small russian
(originally used by Greek orthodoxy to differentiate between Principalities, though the meaning is still up to debate. Later widely used ethnonym in the time of “empire” to fasten assimilation like many other things, e.g. language bans, cultural appropriation, one-sided history interpretations etc.) Cossacks in
Ukraine also known by other name - Malorossiya, divide into citizens and Cossacks. They de facto use only two names themselves,
Ukrainians or Cossacks”
- “Das veränderte Russland in welchem die jetzige Verfassung des Geist und weltlichen Regiments der Kriegs-Staat zu Lande und zu Wasser”, published 1744 by Friedrich Christian Weber – a German diplomat that spent several year traveling the “empire”.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?hl=uk&id=1x5oqe-s-K0C&q=Ukrainer#v=snippet&q=Ukraine&f=false
Page 136, paragraph 1: “February, year 1716. Poles,
Ukrainians and russians,
learn humanities
in separate classes and the Priests who teach them are nice and educated people.”
- “Auxilia historica oder Behülff zu denen historischen und dazu erforderlichen Wissenschafften” Tome 7, by Anselm Desing – German-catholic philosopher, teacher and historian. Year 1747
https://books.google.com.ua/books?hl=uk&id=TPQOAAAAQAAJ&q=Ukrainer#v=snippet&q=Ukraine&f=false
Page 331, paragraph 2, thematic block “About the city of Moscow”: “His Royal Highness had invested a lot of funds into the Gymnasium, in Moscow. Gymnasium’s staff consists of priests who studied either in Poland or in the Ukraine; the first 400 students are
Ukrainians and russians who are
taught separately.”
- «Medicus veri amator ad Apollineae artis alumnus» 1764 by Nicolas-Gabriel Clerc – French medic and historian who served in “empire” by the Time Rozumovsky aka Kirylo Rozum became the last Hetman.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?hl=uk&id=XuoCWPPGyy0C&q=Ukrainiens+#v=snippet&q=Ukrainiens&f=false
Page 212, last paragraph. “
Ukrainians and russians fast for 7 days and eat low fat food during the whole year in general.”
- “Житіє і славные дела государя императора Петра Великого” (eng. “The life and achievements of His Majesty’s The Great Emperor pyotr the great”) by Serbian poet and historian Zacharija Orphelin, 1772.
Page 361, first paragraph: “After the decimation of Baturyn, King Karl (Baturyn was decimated by general Menshykov, the city at that time was named the capital of Hetmanate by Mazepa) thought that
Ukrainian people and Tatars will undoubtedly join him.”
Page 350, last paragraph: “Mazepa was at the King’s service and adamantly assured him that if he will enter
Ukraine with his army not only all of Cossack people will join him, but they will also provide his troops with any needed provisions”
- “Erdbeschreibung” (eng. Geography) Tome 1, Year 1787 by German geographer, historian and educator Anton Friedrich Büsching
https://books.google.com.ua/books?hl=uk&id=HqYwAAAAYAAJ&q=Ukrainer#v=snippet&q=Ukraine&f=false
Page 1187, last paragraph. “
Ukrainians know how to extract salt from Crimean salt deposits near the river Salgir (Ukrainian salt traders aka Chumaky).”
- Reise durch Oberschlesien zur Rußisch-Kayserlichen Armee nach der Ukraine und zum Feldmarschall Rümanzow Sadunaiskoy, 1787 by Hammard August Franz Egphraim a German traveler and researcher.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?h...=Ukrainer+Kosaken#v=onepage&q=Ukraine&f=false
Page 154, paragraph 1: “Archaic definition of
Ukrainians aka Cossacks, which is still present in some contemporary works, the information about their borders that they defended against Tatars, Ottomans and Haydamaky
(an Umbrella definition for the rebel peasantry and Cossacks. However, after the failure of the rebellions this term was used for outlawed groups , not that the original Haydamaky weren’t throatcutters) raids, the land of their fathers who defended freedoms, the freedoms which Cossacks used as a democratic right in order to have a sovereignty of free people in Poland under the Sigizmund the Third’s rule.
(He probably means how the Cossacks got the autonomy or whatever aka «Вольності Війська Запорозького» in Poland for their service, considering that they were in dependence with Poland at the time.) And russia did not interfere with this freedoms for a long time after Poland lost this lands, so the russian monarchs could use Cossack’s warlike spirit to their own advantage.”
- Geschichte Karls XII. Königs von Schweden: nach Voltaire, 1791 by Ernst Ludwig Posselt a German historian.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?hl=uk&id=y9RAAAAAcAAJ&q=Ukrainer#v=snippet&q=Ukraine&f=false
Page 223, last paragraph: “
Ukrainians still could elect their Prince whom they called Hetman, but soon any new Hetman was appointed by the russian court.”
- Ueber Russlands handel, landwirthschaftliche kultur, industrie und produkte: nebst einigen physischen und statistichen bemerkungen, tome 1 by Wilhelm Christian Friebe, Latvian historian of German origin, 1796.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?i...e_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Ukraine&f=false
Page 174, second paragraph: “According to the new laws which are implemented in the Ukraine Cossacks can be considered a special social class but the name
Ukrainians still has more weight than the name Cossacks.”
- “Geschichte der Ukraine und der ukrainischen Kosaken” 1796, by Johann Christian von Engel.
Citation not needed, it is in the name.
- “Fragments historiques et geographiques sur la Scythie, la Sarmatie et les slaves”, 1796, by Yan Jan Nepomucen Potocki – polish historian, ethnographer, traveler and a member the the St. Petersburg’s Academy of Sciences.
Tome one, page 3, first paragraph. There he goes on to list the Slavic people. (My French is nonexistent)
https://books.google.com.ua/books?i...mmary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Uckrainiens&f=false
And a couple of strictly russian sources, just in case, not the German or French researchers and diplomats that served the “empire” or simply traveled. However, one can hardly think of them as biased towards their employers or to the people who they simply visit, specifically because they are in position of a simple onlooker and not the party involved.
- “Письма из Малороссии” (eng. Letters from Malorossiya) 1816, by Aleksey Iralkliyevich Levshin, politician, member of “empire’s” sate counsel, historian and ethnographer.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=d2ZlAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=ru#v=onepage&q&f=false
Page 72 and onward, last paragraph
, (on the account of “brotherly nations”) : ”I saw the most part of Malorossiya, all of the Province of Poltava. The people here are hard as nails, but one should fear calling upon their wrath or displeasing them. Unfortunately, I finally must confess to you about their hatred towards velikorossiyany, you can easily feel it in the air here. Often one can hear them say: “Добрий чоловік, та москаль.” You would be a proper man if not for being a Moskal.”
- “Dictionarium trilingue”, 1704 by Fëdor Polikarpovich Polikarpov-Orlov – russian writer, translator, printer.
7th scan, last paragraph: In comparison to Hebrew language our Slavic has truly produced a great number languages that stem from him akin to the branches of a tree. Among them Polish, Czech, Serbian, Bulgarian, Lithuanian, Malorossiyskom and many other languages.
- “Путешествие академика Гильденштедта по Слободско-Украинской губернии”, 1892, original notes by Гюльденштедт Иоанн-Антон, in 1774, russian historian, researcher, traveler and a member of the Academy of Sciences.
http://elib.shpl.ru/ru/nodes/21914-...ernii-harkov-1892#mode/inspect/page/80/zoom/4
Page 78, first paragraph: “All aforementioned Slobody (villages) near the Donets River belong to the Izyum Province and are populated by malrossriyany for the exception of some very small villages of New Bashkin, Mylovoy and Protopopovki, which belong to the Katherinian Province, between these two sides there are always fierce disputes regarding borders. And one can hardly hope that “Hohols” (
one of the derogatory terms for Ukranian, a reference to the haircut probably) will Merge with “Moskals”
(Derogatory fo Muscovians aka russins, a reference to the soldiers of Moscow probably, it later became an umbrella term) someday, that’s how they scornfully call each other i.e. riussians with cherkesy aka rusnaky.
(Cherkesy and Rusnaky - archaic ethnonyms that were used in regards to Ukrainians as well as Ruthenians and Rusyny before 14th-15th century. Ruthenians was more common for western Ukrainians and used by catholic states)”
- ПУТЕШЕСТВЕННЫЯ ЗАПИСКИ ВАСИЛЬЯ ЗУЕВА ОТ С. ПЕТЕРБУРГА ДО ХЕРСОНА В 1781 И 1782 ГОДУ. Vasiliy Fedorovich Zuev - russian ethnographer, historian and academian.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=kTlFAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=uk#v=onepage&q=Малороссіяне&f=false
Page 185: “This people are completely different from russians, in their dialect, attire and actions. But I won’t elaborate further as this is a well-known fact already.”
- “Славны бубны за горами или путешествие мое кое-куда”, 1810 by russian governor, secret advisor and poet Ivan Mikhailovich Dolgorukov.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?i...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Page 64, second paragraph: “Here I already felt like in entirely different lands for a very simple, yet important for me reason – I was not able to understand the people’s tounge. I won’t go into any sophistications and will simply say, and many would agree, that a place where one ceases to understand the language of the people is a place where the borders of his state end.”
(Kinda can see the concept that muscovians use now - where russian language is spoken there is russia)
- “Досуги крымского судьи, или Второе путешествие в Тавриду”, 1803 by Sumarokov Pavel Ivanovich – russian academian, historian and ethnographer.
http://rarebook.onu.edu.ua:8081/handle/store/2331?locale=uk
Page 45, second paragraph: “But what could this drastic change in everything than one can see after the village Lipetsy
(the last russian station before Kharkov) mean? Here, one can see short-whitewashed Mazanky (village houses), villagers with shaved heads handling their carriages with cattle, and open stalls selling domestic wine. In a prim and proper village house, one can see very different faces, traditions, attire, attitude and hear a different language. Could it be that the “empire” ends here? Is it some other state I have entered? No, the “empire” still continues, but from here on I enter the land called Malorossiya.”
There are A LOT of sources from researchers, diplomats etc. In addition, in this works you can find other paragraphs. However I can only consult you on russian and German sources (Though my German is quite terrible and I can marginally understand the meaning) There is a number of French works or that were written in French, but as I’ve said my French is nonexistent. Except I had already spent too many of my calories to spoon feed (you). You can always use CAT tools and translate yourself.
Weirdly enough, the popularization of Malorossiya coincides with the time Muscovy started monopolizing the Rus brand. The way you said it I can also say that no such country as RF existed before 1991. In addition, some nations do not get the proper chance to build their own sustained state, and in theory, a nation may exist without
(because they are rather bound culturally and historically than by physical conditions and understand themselves as other) a state, though I believe it is crucial for them to have one in order to implement their potential. Ukrainians is one of said nations, which existed without a sustained or full-fledged (independent) state due to the unfortunate geopolitical circumstance (and a bunch of other factors). i.e. being sandwiched between three states with imperialistic ambitions for several hundred years and not having oceans to separate Ukraine from its friendly neighbors did wonders to its independence.
There was an order of unsuccessful attempts in full-fleged state building and they are as follows, starting from the fall of Rus: Principality of Galicia–Volhynia for about hundred and something years
(which is interestingly enough is called Regnum Rusiae since 13th century, not mentioning that the Polish and other western people used to call Ukrainians - Ruthenians or Rusiny not to confuse with modern Rusiny, and Belorussians were called White Ruthenians or Lithuiny at some time. Reminder, it was long before Principality of Muscovy from which RF stems tried to monopolize the Rus brand all for itself) Statless period for couple of hundreds of years (Lands under different states rule) then Cossack Hetmanate, about a hundred, late 17th century – late 18th, another stateless period, and the last one – UPR, several years at the beginning of 20th century. The latest one we are witnessing now.
I perfectly understand that only historical perspective that West gets from here is the one from russia and the west hardly bothers to it its own research. Honestly, it is no wonder because modern Ukrainian state is not relevant enough. Well, you even can say that there’s not much Ukraine left in language, traditions, history after 300-400 hundreds of years in “brotherly union” to begin with. However, that does not mean that there were no or there are no Ukrainians or that they had no state or that they have none now.
That is why the fact you spouted nonsense that you did indicates either your ignorance or hostility, but hostile and/or ignorant opinion of someone from other continent carries as much weight as the same kind of opinion from your average russian. Hint – not much. Not that it does not irk me. It very much does.
Overall, tbh, I believe that documents and “what was once” is not that important (I do not have any serious insecurities) because nations and their states should prove their existence now instead of obsessing over their historical insecurities like certain someone does. They should prove that not only by ink of a writer, but also by blood of the soldier (if need be) and sweat of the worker (according to Germans).
