Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[Junglejim]

I don't think Trump is interested in peace per se. His peace rhetoric was for domestic consumption, i.e. a means to stop wasting money on Ukraine. THAT is what MAGA wants. His supporters are sick and tired of dipshit Democrats spending billions and waiving the Ukrainian flag in congress.

Per Trump, why should the US arm Zelensky anyways? What's in it for us? Does not Ukraine/Europe ever get tired of being the United State's welfare case? Perhaps Europe should stop crying and start dealing with their own problems.

Trump views the world differently. The NeoConservative agenda of projecting American power to every inch of the globe is ending under Trump. It's a waste of money and resources that could be better spent on our own side of the Atlantic.

Ukraine was the bargain basement in terms of cost of destroying America's enemies and ensuring America's dominance in the future and instilling the Pax Americana for decades to come.

Americans want out of those costs? Fine, by me... just remember this Ukraine event down the line, when somebody else picks up the reigns aka China, the new EU or even the rumored South Korea - Japanese movement. Yes boys its pre WW2 all over again. Only this the oil and giants of manufacturing are in the East.

I can just see Admiral Perry and Theodore Roosevelt turning in their graves.

 

[Connaught Ranger]

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[Kassner]

When will cheap, used aircraft carriers hit the market? Someone needs to do that policing.

Are people aware of the amount the US is spending on Ukraine or do they think that stopping it will fix their economy?

Bilateral aid to Ukraine by country GDP 2024 | Statista

Estonia and Denmark had the highest ratio of bilateral support to Ukraine to donor GDP as of February 2024. Poland ranked sixth by GDP share of aid to Ukraine.

www.statista.com

It has nothing to do with the economy. MAGA would rather allocate these resources for our own defense...... primarily towards the border, our side of the Atlantic, etc.

In addition, pointing out that we don't spend equal % of GDP on YOUR security is exactly what exacerbates the MAGA hatred towards Europe even more. It reeks of pure entittlement.
It's why Vance's statement of "be thankful for what you've been given" hits home, so to speak.

 

[PEMM]

Edit. Sorry @Kassner . I, need to go and chill.

 

[Chazman]

No nothing is happening I tell you the facts Putler so far was very succesful in dodging that "deal".

Why are you interpreting stuff which isn't there?

He changed every demand.

Totally idiotic he is not interested in lasting peace and cooperation get that into your heads.

He is softening every demand until its gone and only his demands remain. Or he shat on everything and its useless and F***ed up.

Like Junglejim said they are professional trolls.

Trump already got into that trap hes talking to someone with a clear goal which is not peace to repeat myself ad nauseam.

Ukraine must be armed first and inflict such losses on Russia that it MUST negotiate peace. And that Rusdia can't pummel it every night with aerial attacks.

Not that cringe bromance show that we are witnessing right now.

Then what should be done?

I ask that rhetorically because I know, no one will rise up and do anything.

 

[Hiryu2.0]

The US may have destroyed evidence of the deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia, Reuters reports, citing a letter from Democratic lawmakers.“After funding for Yale researchers was cut, information about 30,000 children, including satellite images, was irretrievably deleted.

 

[Chazman]

That. In order to achieve peace, BOTH sides must feel the pressure.

In the beginning it was only Russia feeling the heat because everyone gave in to every demand Zelensky put on the table. I do have a feeling where "why dont you ever say thank you" stems from, because in the first years the Ukrainians were always only complaining despite everythink they got and like Melnik in Germany even meddling in domestic policies of allies, who appeared totally okay with it.

Now I thought maybe Donald is gonna level the playing field and puts pressure on both parties. But Trump just turned the tables and is parroting Putin like the Europeans have been parroting Zelensky before.

The entirety situation makes it hard to find a good broker for peace, since everyone seems to be circle jerking in his own camp. The internet is a good testimony for it, you'll find either pro Russia or Slava Ukraini echo chambers, but no factual reporting and discussion.

And that's the point. Who is a good broker? None from Europe that I can see. Europe is a continent, not a country. The French don't trust the Germans, the Italians don't trust the French, the EU is borrowing money to send to Islamists in Syria. Let's face it, there are no serious players coming from Europe.

Good, bad, indifferent - Trump is the only broker. Period.

 

[Kassner]

Ukraine was the bargain basement in terms of cost of destroying America's enemies and ensuring America's dominance in the future and instilling the Pax Americana for decades to come.

Americans want out of those costs? Fine, by me... just remember this Ukraine event down the line, when somebody else picks up the reigns aka China, the new EU or even the rumored South Korea - Japanese movement. Yes boys its pre WW2 all over again. Only this the oil and giants of manufacturing are in the East.

I can just see Admiral Perry and Theodore Roosevelt turning in their graves.

Who America's enemies are is not for Europe to say. The traditional rules based order, that has benefitted Europe greatly, is being tossed out the window. So I understand Europe's discontent.

Trump is a continentalist. As we're witnessing now, foreign aid is reflecting Trumps new vision of the world. It reflects American interests depending on costs and benefits, not any commitment to global stability. Is it a pre-WW2 scenario? Perhaps. But in the age of nuclear weapons, we are not headed for another global war.

 

[Kassner]

Edit. Sorry @Kassner . I, need to go and chill.

No problem. Keep in mind, I certainly don't agree with everything Trump says or does. I'm right-wing but MAGA is a cult.

 

[Chazman]

Who America's enemies are is not for Europe to say. The traditional rules based order, that has benefitted Europe greatly, is being tossed out the window. So I understand Europe's discontent.

Trump is a continentalist. As we're witnessing now, foreign aid is reflecting Trumps new vision of the world. It reflects American interests depending on costs and benefits, not any automatic commitment to global stability. Is it a pre-WW2 scenario? Perhaps. But in the age of nuclear weapons, we are not headed for another global war.

The world is in the process of creating a new order and Europe refuses to acknowledge it. It's happening folks. Everyone in this thread is mad at Trump. Who gives a sh!t about Trump! Trump is my President not yours. He's doing America's bidding, not yours.

Europe is still in the 80 year stupor that Uncle Sam will cover them in a warm blanket of security against Ivan the boogeyman. Ivan couldn't even take Ukraine in over 3 years of trying. Ivan is not crippled, but he is certainly diminished.

Europe, do you need a pep talk or something? You are a half a billion people. You have billions of Euros coming out of your ears for every stupid woke cause, Green initiative, regulation and virtue signal. Maybe not having Uncle Sam take care of you, is just what you need.

 

[Connaught Ranger]

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[Hiryu2.0]

Jonathan Lemire: “For weeks, [Donald] Trump has bragged about his close relationship with his Russian counterpart and declared that [Vladimir] Putin wanted to bring a quick end to the war that he, of course, started more than three years ago. Trump’s national-security team worked with Ukraine to come up with a 30-day cease-fire proposal in hopes of persuading Moscow to accept it. And his press secretary declared yesterday that Ukraine and Russia were on the ‘10th yard line of peace.’ https://theatln.tc/MnD1E76C

“But when the two men spoke [yesterday], Putin had his own ideas.

“Putin did agree during the more-than-two-hour call to halt strikes on Ukrainian energy infrastructure, and he pledged to continue negotiations. But that limited deal fell far short of what the White House had forecast in recent days, and it now confronts Trump with a dilemma. In order to secure the peace he has promised, he might have to engage in something he has yet to do: get tough with Putin.

“… Putin offered next to no concessions, and his goal, according to a Kremlin readout of the call, remains maximalist: preventing Ukraine’s rearmament and sovereignty. In order for him to accept Trump’s full cease-fire proposal, Putin said, Ukraine would have to stop rearming its military and sending new soldiers to the front lines, and all foreign governments—including the United States and Kyiv’s European allies—would have to stop sending military assistance or intelligence to Ukraine.

“… So far, Trump hasn’t done anything to suggest that he’s cooling on Putin … When Putin didn’t give Trump everything he wanted [yesterday], the Russian leader still got a friendly Truth Social post from Trump, pledges of further talks, and possibly some hockey games featuring the best players from each country.

“But there were signs that Trump wasn’t happy with how Putin played his hand. Trump has rarely missed opportunities to chat with reporters during the first eight weeks of his presidency; [on Monday], he fielded questions multiple times, including when predicting that Putin wanted peace, and he often boastfully engages with the press while signing executive orders.

“Another such signing was scheduled for the Oval Office [yesterday] afternoon. But reporters were not invited to watch, depriving them of the chance to ask questions about the Putin call. Trump remained behind closed doors.”

Read more: https://theatln.tc/MnD1E76C

 

[PEMM]

Europe is still in the 80 year stupor that Uncle Sam will cover them in a warm blanket of security against Ivan the boogeyman. Ivan couldn't even take Ukraine in over 3 years of trying. Ivan is not crippled, but he is certainly diminished.

Haven't European countries informed of serious boosts to their militaries?

It's just going to take years to come out the other end.

Meanwhile I'd like to poke at those countries like France, who are safe but not on the top of the list.

Small frontier countries giving up their equipment that was collected through the decades with small populations and budgets, seems to me like a bad idea. Unless this is not a joint problem, of course.

 

[Chazman]

Haven't European countries informed of serious boosts to their militaries?

It's just going to take years to come out the other end.

Meanwhile I'd like to poke at those countries like France, who are safe but not on the top of the list.

Small frontier countries giving up their equipment that was collected through the decades with small populations and budgets, seems to me like a bad idea. Unless this is not a joint problem, of course.

My suggestion is that Europe, EU, NATO get it's house in order.

While it may feel good to turn this Ukraine War thread into an anti-Trump thread, (it sure is easier than holding your own collective leaders to the fire), Trump may wake up tomorrow and say, "fvck it, Putin's a dick, I'm out". If that happens, then Europe has a problem. And all the stupid memes in the world won't help.

 

[thelistener]

Trump is a continentalist. As we're witnessing now, foreign aid is reflecting Trumps new vision of the world. It reflects American interests depending on costs and benefits, not any commitment to global stability. Is it a pre-WW2 scenario? Perhaps. But in the age of nuclear weapons, we are not headed for another global war.

Its quite sad that Americans are unable to see how the US has benefited from rules based world order and global stability = sees no benefit from being the global superpower.

The world is in the process of creating a new order

I think it's pretty clear to Europe too. The US is now a transactional partner.

"we" just can't wrap our heads around how the US thinks it's in their interest to lose its superpower status. It would be comforting to believe that there is a master plan behind all this activity and that in the end the US superpower status will only be strengthened, but I don't think so. As I mentioned here earlier, the United States did not have a clear strategy, for example in the Ukrainian peace negotiations. I really hope I am wrong, but the pessimist is not disappointed.

Many in my countries state apparatus still don't believe that's what the US wants, is just more of a transactional partner. But surely there are some things that point to the fact that that's exactly what the US is doing, which is unprecedented in history = giving up superpower status of its own accord. but I personally argue that "all of this" is more stupidity and poor management than intentional action. Because clearly the US still cares a lot about Israel, bombs the Houthis, etc., which suggests that the US is not completely withdrawing to its own continent.

 

[Picanha]

Its selective and without a plan based on Trumps todays feelings and his simplistic world view.

Thats it. Erratic and non conclusive.

Garnished with a little bit of ignorance and self overestimation.

Remember that a EU country can do things you can't and the Chinese want that badly.

Also remember how many of your ancestors died for todays world.

But hey lets be totally insular and let the empires of evil reign the world what could go wrong?

 

[Picanha]

Think you gonna have Apples and Teslas in that world? Yes maybe Teslas which Musk offered to Xi after Trump crashed the US...

 

[Chazman]

Its quite sad that Americans are unable to see how the US has benefited from rules based world order and global stability = sees no benefit from being the global superpower.


I think it's pretty clear to Europe too. The US is now a transactional partner.

"we" just can't wrap our heads around how the US thinks it's in their interest to lose its superpower status. It would be comforting to believe that there is a master plan behind all this activity and that in the end the US superpower status will only be strengthened, but I don't think so. As I mentioned here earlier, the United States did not have a clear strategy, for example in the Ukrainian peace negotiations. I really hope I am wrong, but the pessimist is not disappointed.

Many in my countries state apparatus still don't believe that's what the US wants, is just more of a transactional partner. But surely there are some things that point to the fact that that's exactly what the US is doing, which is unprecedented in history = giving up superpower status of its own accord. but I personally argue that "all of this" is more stupidity and poor management than intentional action. Because clearly the US still cares a lot about Israel, bombs the Houthis, etc., which suggests that the US is not completely withdrawing to its own continent.

The US is the only Super Power now, make no mistake about it.

Europe is fragmented and without strong leadership. Russia has demonstrated that being a Super Power is a long gone fantasy. They are just an oil producer with nukes. China is in worse shape than most understand. Their economy is in shambles, perhaps beyond repair and capital is fleeing as fast as possible. China will be in for some big changes within the next decade, many of them not pretty.

But notwithstanding everyone's pouting, the US and Europe will always have a special relationship. But it might require some "tough love". When your unemployed, 32 year old son is living in your basement playing video games all day, it might be time to cut him off for his own good.

And yes, the pounding the Houthis are taking, shows that the US is not ready to retreat to Fortress America yet, but everyone should know that every global problem will no longer be America's problem moving forward. Just a reminder, opening up the Suez Canal and Red Sea, benefits a lot of people more than the US, and yet, it's the US Navy putting warheads on foreheads over there.