Politics Riots in Gaza and Israel

[IDF_TANKER]

That looks like a mk3?

And that is why the units they will deploy have Trophy Active Protection System now - will not stop IED but will give you a chance against ATGM

Expect more drone cover and Apache cover

But why risk your armour when you can pound them from mobile artillery - from the air and from the sea - day after day after day - eventually you will run out of martyrs

This is Magach-7c. The picture is from late 90's IIRC, when I was in service. This is a training accident - during exercise the tank fell from a cliff and rolled. Has F*** all to do with Hezbollah, of course. No Magach-7c's where used in fighting during the second Lebanon war...

Shelata, for those unfamiliar, was our resident Middle Eastern clown from Egypt on MP.net. Think a much, much, less sophisticated version of Mardonius, and you'll get the idea.

 

[IDF_TANKER]

The source of those rockets have missiles in its arsenal that would flatten Israel's entire critical infrastructure within hours.

I would seriously advise you to refrain from those inane chest-beating posts. If Iran can "flatten Israel's entire critical infrastructure within hours", try imagining for a second what Israel can...

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Think a much, much, less sophisticated version of Mardonius, and you'll get the idea.

Oh... those are... those are some dank and uncharted territories you are asking us to venture into!

 

[BCNTM]

Sort out Hamas? They are still conducting rocket and drone attacks after days of aerial and artillery strikes. If you want to see how things will develop, try to look at what happened in 2006 against Hezbollah. Israel can't destroy these organizations, and soon as the conflict is over, Iran is going to fund their reconstruction and re-armament. In the meanwhile, with every year passing, more accurate and capable weaponry will pass into their ranks.

There is a reason why Israeli strategists are all crying out loud of desperation at the moment. They are being flanked from all sides by actors with potent weapons. And what is happening in Gaza will be child's play compared to what will happen if the northern front will lit up.

The sad thing is that Israel is bing careful not to just flatten everything because they could if they wanted to - so they are showing some restraint

and your side the poxy terrorists are quite happy to kill anyone including their own population to try and further their ends

There is no end game to this one just endless war - for no reason

Even if your side started to gain any traction the US would step in and stamp on you

 

[BCNTM]

I would seriously advise you to refrain from those inane chest-beating posts. If Iran can "flatten Israel's entire critical infrastructure within hours", try imagining for a second what Israel can...

You have quite a few nice Jerry built subs

Israel Submarine Capabilities

Overview of Israel's submarine capabilities and import-export behavior.

www.nti.org

 

[Mardonius]

I would seriously advise you to refrain from those inane chest-beating posts. If Iran can "flatten Israel's entire critical infrastructure within hours", try imagining for a second what Israel can...

Iran does imagine.

Step 1: surround Israel with all kinds of allied organizations that keep the country protracted, off-balance and in check.

Step 2: build up a resistant (war) economy in order to become less vulnerable to sanctions and increase resilience for future calamities.

Step 3: build up assymetric-conventional capabilities that will establish strong deterrence against the US so that the costs of intervention for the Americans will be too heavy to ever think of conducting a pre-emptive attack or assist Israel when sh*t hits the fan.

Step 4: slowly but firmly establish a widespread, hardened nuclear industry in order to establish nuclear latency (threshold status) to move over to an outright nuclear power when the political need arises.

Last step: Inshallah.

We are at step 4 at the moment. Nothing beats Persian strategic thinking and planning my Jewish friend.

 

[BCNTM]

This is Magach-7c. The picture is from late 90's IIRC, when I was in service. This is a training accident - during exercise the tank fell from a cliff and rolled. Has F*** all to do with Hezbollah, of course. No Magach-7c's where used in fighting during the second Lebanon war...

Shelata, for those unfamiliar, was our resident Middle Eastern clown from Egypt on MP.net. Think a much, much, less sophisticated version of Mardonius, and you'll get the idea.

Struggling to see the picture to be honest as I'm using a netbook

I thought he was Mardy's sock puppet - twice the pay ?

 

[BCNTM]

Iran does imagine.

Step 1: surround Israel with all kinds of allied organizations that keep the country protracted, off-balance and in check.

Step 2: build up a resistant (war) economy in order to become less vulnerable to sanctions and increase resilience for future calamities.

Step 3: build up assymetric-conventional capabilities that will establish strong deterrence against the US so that the costs of intervention for the Americans will be too heavy to ever think of conducting a pre-emptive attack or assist Israel when sh*t hits the fan.

Step 4: slowly but firmly establish a widespread, hardened nuclear industry in order to establish nuclear latency (threshold status) to move over to an outright nuclear power when the political need arises.

Last step: Inshallah.

We are at step 4 at the moment. Nothing beats Persian strategic thinking and planning my Jewish friend.

It's a bit of a game to you but just remember snakes and ladders you could end up back at step 0 very quickly - no water - no power - no income

You might even get called up to fight............

 

[BeNder]

Iran does imagine.

Step 1: surround Israel with all kinds of allied organizations that keep the country protracted, off-balance and in check.

Step 2: build up a resistant (war) economy in order to become less vulnerable to sanctions and increase resilience for future calamities.

Step 3: build up assymetric-conventional capabilities that will establish strong deterrence against the US so that the costs of intervention for the Americans will be too heavy to ever think of conducting a pre-emptive attack or assist Israel when sh*t hits the fan.

Step 4: slowly but firmly establish a widespread, hardened nuclear industry in order to establish nuclear latency (threshold status) to move over to an outright nuclear power when the political need arises.

Last step: Inshallah.

We are at step 4 at the moment. Nothing beats Persian strategic thinking and planning my Jewish friend.

Step 5 , we will see

 

[surfpunk]

Iran does imagine.

Step 1: surround Israel with all kinds of allied organizations that keep the country protracted, off-balance and in check.

Step 2: build up a resistant (war) economy in order to become less vulnerable to sanctions and increase resilience for future calamities.

Step 3: build up assymetric-conventional capabilities that will establish strong deterrence against the US so that the costs of intervention for the Americans will be too heavy to ever think of conducting a pre-emptive attack or assist Israel when sh*t hits the fan.

Step 4: slowly but firmly establish a widespread, hardened nuclear industry in order to establish nuclear latency (threshold status) to move over to an outright nuclear power when the political need arises.

Last step: Inshallah.

We are at step 4 at the moment. Nothing beats Persian strategic thinking and planning my Jewish friend.

isn't admitting the Iranian source of the missiles being used against Israel, casus belli?
Israel seems to have multiple long range strike actions it could use to strike targets in Iran, with Iran having very little it could use to defend against such attacks.
Do you think Israel is even considering something like this?
Do you think Israel has the intelligence capability to even be able to identify targets in Iran, responsible for the manufacture of the rockets being used to attack Israel?
And lastly, do you think there is a solution that exists to all of this conflict, that would satisfy both the Palestinians and Israel?
Sincerely interested in your insight, if you care to comment, Thanks

 

[Mardonius]

isn't admitting the Iranian source of the missiles being used against Israel, casus belli?

Plausible deniability is quite strong in this case. But whether something consists a casus belli de jure can often differ from a de facto casus belli. Simply put: international law is not what defines both Israeli and Iranian actions but unofficial rules of engagement that both countries have established and adhere to.

Israel seems to have multiple long range strike actions it could use to strike targets in Iran, with Iran having very little it could use to defend against such attacks.

That is not true. Iranian has made great improvement with its aerial defence systems. This is being admitted by both the Americans and Israelis.

Do you think Israel is even considering something like this?

Yes. The Israelis have such plans but it is an incredibly difficult and complex decision-making with a lot of influential figures within Israeli security circles that are oppossed to this.

Do you think Israel has the intelligence capability to even be able to identify targets in Iran, responsible for the manufacture of the rockets being used to attack Israel?

Yes. Difficulty is not the intelligence but Israel lacking the adequate capability (arms) to deal a strategic blow to Iran due to Iran having placed most its strategic military industry underground.

And lastly, do you think there is a solution exists to all of this conflict, that would satisfy both the Palestinians and Israel?

At this point, I consider diplomacy to be unthinkable. Both camps and societies have become weary of each other and mutual aversion of each other's existence is the dominant sentiment.

But I'm a bit out of my depth here.

Sincerely interested in your insight, if you care to comment, Thanks

Your welcome.

 

[surfpunk]

Plausible deniability is quite strong in this case. But whether something consists a casus belli de jure can often differ from a de facto casus belli. Simply put: international law is not what defines both Israeli and Iranian actions but unofficial rules of engagement that both countries have established and adhere to.



That is not true. Iranian has made great improvement with its aerial defence systems. This is being admitted by both the Americans and Israelis.


Yes. The Israelis have such plans but it is an incredibly difficult and complex decision-making with a lot of influential figures within Israeli security circles that are oppossed to this.



Yes. Difficulty is not the intelligence but Israel lacking the adequate capability (arms) to deal a strategic blow to Iran due to Iran having placed most its strategic military industry underground.



At this point, I consider diplomacy to be unthinkable. Both camps and societies have become weary of each other and mutual aversion of each other's existence is the dominant sentiment.

But I'm a bit out of my depth here.



Your welcome.

thanks very much, I appreciate your answers...
you think diplomacy is unthinkable? as in, at the moment, or just in general a lost cause?
someone once said, something to effect of, "war is just diplomacy by other means..." or something like that... so what do you think the end game in the situation is this time? each side blows its wad, and returns to the uneasy status quo?
I dont know much about the history of the entire situation, well, I know a bit about the actual historical events that have happened since the British took the area from Ottoman rule, but much less about the actual significance and repercussions...
So, I have always thought that the best thing the Israelis could do, would be to fully integrate non-jews into Israel, and let their success, and their treatment lead the way.
You get more flies with honey, so to say... Bludgeoning someone is never going to bring them to your side...
I am not convinced that the religious differences are a permanent barrier, in conflict, its more just used to unite and motivate, but if the reasons for conflict could be resolved, the religious differences would become much less significant...
of course, I am probably very naïve.

 

[IDF_TANKER]

Iran does imagine.

Step 1: surround Israel with all kinds of allied organizations that keep the country protracted, off-balance and in check.

Step 2: build up a resistant (war) economy in order to become less vulnerable to sanctions and increase resilience for future calamities.

Step 3: build up assymetric-conventional capabilities that will establish strong deterrence against the US so that the costs of intervention for the Americans will be too heavy to ever think of conducting a pre-emptive attack or assist Israel when sh*t hits the fan.

Step 4: slowly but firmly establish a widespread, hardened nuclear industry in order to establish nuclear latency (threshold status) to move over to an outright nuclear power when the political need arises.

Last step: Inshallah.

We are at step 4 at the moment. Nothing beats Persian strategic thinking and planning my Jewish friend.

Oh, I have no doubt this is the plan. I even have no doubt Iran's at the Step 4 - you think. The reality of course, is just a tiny bit more complicated.

First, there is no "surrounding". There is Hamas and Hezbollah. And after the spanking Hezzies got in 2006, they have been conspicuously almost completely quite since then (here and there half-arsed "show of force" provocations notwithstanding). Having been literally decimated in the Syrian war, their capacity, let alone the will, to fight yet another suicidal war against Israel is highly questionable. We have absolutely no illusion BTW about their missile arsenal theoretical ability to inflict damage in Israel. It's just, if this threat materializes, there will be no South Lebanon. About this nobody has any illusions either - neither us, nor them. Moreover the "surrounding" made us stronger than ever - everything from peace agreements with Arab states (new arms markets, new investment, more political clout on international arena etc.) to even more strategic cooperation with Western nations (much of it behind the curtains for obvious reasons).

Second, no. There is simply no place for nuance here - just no. As for now Iran is borderline failed state, which is painfully obvious in every aspect - anything from absolutely abysmal inflation (what was it, about 50% in 2020..?), tragically pathetic handling of Covid, to selling yourself into virtual slavery to your future Chinese masters. All this BTW, when Israel in absolutely the best shape since its establishment. Just in recent recent years Israel surpassed in its nominal GDP PP almost all major European powers - France, UK...

Third, yeah... I have no doubt that all those cheap-ass drones and speed-boats can inflict some serous damage... in a short run. The problem, of course, which again is painfully obvious to everybody, is that after you have spent decades by funding all kind of Jihadists all over the world, no much investment have left to made into your forces. The simple reality is the Iranian conventional military is a paper tiger. Remember, Mardonius, Photoshop works much better on internet, than in the real life.

Fourth. That one made me genuinely chuckle. By hardened you mean, your S**t keep mysteriously blown up ever Tuesday and Thursday. Also, sometimes, on Wednesday too. All the while Mossad keeps walking in and out of your most protected facilities like it owns the place? Shouldn't the stage four have been materialized like couple of decades ago, no?

All of this is the hard reality of what's going on, not the Iranian version of that:

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Speaking of Persian strategic thinking, mate - wonna see how it works against the Jewish mind combined with acute self-preservation instinct? The simple truth of it all, mate, we simply cannot afford to loose, and this is all. If you have any self-preservation instinct you really should start seriously considering to F*** off...

Other than that, as Bender pointed out, we'll see.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

someone once said, something to effect of, "war is just diplomacy by other means..." or something like that...

"War is simply the continuation of political intercourse with the addition of other means"
Klausewitz

 

[Fluff]

Plausible deniability is quite strong in this case. But whether something consists a casus belli de jure can often differ from a de facto casus belli. Simply put: international law is not what defines both Israeli and Iranian actions but unofficial rules of engagement that both countries have established and adhere to.



That is not true. Iranian has made great improvement with its aerial defence systems. This is being admitted by both the Americans and Israelis.


Yes. The Israelis have such plans but it is an incredibly difficult and complex decision-making with a lot of influential figures within Israeli security circles that are oppossed to this.



Yes. Difficulty is not the intelligence but Israel lacking the adequate capability (arms) to deal a strategic blow to Iran due to Iran having placed most its strategic military industry underground.



At this point, I consider diplomacy to be unthinkable. Both camps and societies have become weary of each other and mutual aversion of each other's existence is the dominant sentiment.

But I'm a bit out of my depth here.



Your welcome.

undoubtedly both countries have plans regarding the other. the question is what would trigger the action.

almost certainly israel has been active in iran, primarily to slow the nuclear issue. I dont believe iran can act similarly in israel, but iran has control or at least large influence on the various militias etc, hamas, which impacts Israel.

big open question is what does Joe think?

clearly no-one really has an issue with Israel pounding the Gaza strip etc. as legitimate payback. One imagines a response against Iran would be popular within Israel, but the unknown is then any Iranian response. But the counter to Iranian response is USA response...... and so it goes on.

A deniable 'attack' aka accident in Iran is probably an option. But I'd expect at this point Israel to claim any attack, and in fact would expect Israel to attack, somehow.

 

[Deleted member 11302]

You pointed out jackshit, moronically referring to this supposed existence of anti-Arab hatred of the average Iranian to equate that with Israeli state policy of Jewish supremacy. Stop making a mockery out of yourself.

Are you trying to be humorous or something? Dude, I speak, read and write the language. From early childhood right up to this day I regularly witnessed Iranians being incredibly racist towards Arabs. The amount of slurs and insults is right up there with the language white supremacists use for black people, what are you on about? "Tâzi" and "Lizard-Eater" are just the two that come to mind immediately, just calling someone an Arab in Iran passes for an insult.

Okay pardon me if my question sounds amateur-ish, but I just want to understand why certain people support Israel in this?

Ironically our resident Hezbollah member gave you the answer, he just presented it as a "bad position" to have. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is almost like a bellwether for what comes next in Europe, our spineless cuckold politicians regularly chicken out in order to appease the muslim populations in Europe, mostly to the detriment of natives and non-islamic migrant communities.

Britain has almost become a semi-sharia state, while France is constantly on the brink of a low-key civil war at the hand of islamists. Germany is constantly trying to buy its way out of confrontations with tax payer money and more appeasement to Iran's regime, which, by the way, was spending the 90s and early 2000s sending assassins to Bonn and Berlin to murder Iranian dissidents on German soil.

Perhaps you can ask yourself this; what would your dear leader Vladimir Vladimirovich do if the chechens began raining unguided rockets on Ossetia or some other Russian province? Yeah, he would probably have the army line up their Buratinos and carpet-bomb the area with thermobaric artillery.

 

[gilgoul]

I sincerely hope this forum stays polite.
The facts are hard to kill, but can be drowned in heaps of bullshit.
I notice some old trolls familiar to older defunct forums, i personally tend to ignore their propaganda as it is just that.
I am open to honest critics, but please realize something, modern misinformation started with the israeli vs Palestinian irredentism conflict.

So no matter what "narrative" one choses to adhere to, the facts are so far simple:

More than 2000 rockets of different make and caliber have been fired blindly on israeli population centers.

The Israeli air force, Navy and special forces have conducted hundreds of missions in order to fulfill the objective of this operation, to destroy the Hamas infrastructures, command centers and launchers and kill their commanders and operatives.

In order to prevent unwanted collateral casualties many munitions, techniques and tactics have been developed by Israel security apparatus, with obvious success.

Nota bene: putting onto israel the responsibility of launch failures is a moral fallacy. So far more than 300 rockets and missiles launched towards Israel have fallen short, the consequent casualties are being added to Israel by "humanitarian" bodies taking their numbers from the Hamas.
This run like the others isn't spontaneous, falling for the arab propaganda pretexting a visit or a real estate dispute makes you a fool no less.
Once Hamas is subdued, the peace will still not prevail

 

[Deleted member 11302]

Second, no. There is simply no place for nuance here - just no. As for now Iran is borderline failed state, which is painfully obvious in every aspect - anything from absolutely abysmal inflation (what was it, about 50% in 2020..?), tragically pathetic handling of Covid, to selling yourself into virtual slavery to your future Chinese masters. All this BTW, when Israel in absolutely the best shape since its establishment. Just in recent recent years Israel surpassed in its nominal GDP PP almost all major European powers - France, UK...

Having both a German and Iranian background, I have come to realise that there are people in the world to whom hating & killing the Jews is more important than the welfare and prosperity of their own nations and people. The Iranians have collectively fallen into this trap and can't get out of it for the while. The same was true of Germany, the difference is that Germany had the fortune of being bombed back into civilisation by the Americans and the British. Even though Iran's regime and its supporters thrive on antisemitism and islamism, I can assure you that a majority of Iranians wouldn't even give a cr@p about this entire affair were it not for the fact that the nation's wealth is being squandered on foreign terror organisations and the futile attempt to erect an shiite islamist empire on the bones of their children.

 

[IDF_TANKER]

Step 5 , we will see

Having both a German and Iranian background, I have come to realise that there are people in the world to whom hating & killing the Jews is more important than the welfare and prosperity of their own nations and people. The Iranians have collectively fallen into this trap and can't get out of it for the while. The same was true of Germany, the difference is that Germany had the fortune of being bombed back into civilisation by the Americans and the British. Even though Iran's regime and its supporters thrive on antisemitism and islamism, I can assure you that a majority of Iranians wouldn't even give a cr@p about this entire affair were it not for the fact that the nation's wealth is being squandered on foreign terror organisations and the futile attempt to erect an shiite islamist empire on the bones of their children.

We actually have no illusion about Iranian people as such. Curiously enough, despite the conflict, there is no any widespread anti-Persian sentiment to speak of in Israel. Also, everybody remembers the Shah days, so maybe one day... The Iranian regime made the same mistake Soviets did during the Cold War - they place all their bets on the wrong side.

 

[jebirun]

International law is not applicable in Israel case.. they can do what ever to the Palestinian freely until Hamas start firing rocket they suddenly got cold feet and all the bashing of them in cyberworld mostly from Malaysia netizen really make Israel 'Koyak'... Since Nakba 1967, Israel getting land through blood and killing of innocent Palestinian and evict them from the homeland.. this is the reality people.. the Palestinian plight and struggle is a proof show how the world is unjust, corrupted, biased.