Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[muck]

Muck, please. If the Europeans were serious people, Trump would not even be involved. There is a better than 50/50 chance he ends up walking away soon and then the Europeans can have their chance. Not that they need to be given a chance, because if they were "take charge" men of action, they'd already be on it.

Are the Europeans still buying Russian oil, directly or indirectly? I've asked that several times now with no answer. Because if they are, they are not serious people.

Mate, you argue almost as erratically and inconsistently as your president.

Throughout his term, Biden shut down several attempts by the Europeans to escalate their support for Ukraine. The CIA's aforementioned former head of European operations has testified to this.

Trump supported the idea of European peacekeeping forces in Ukraine during his first meeting with Britain's Starmer, only to undermine him by having Witkoff promise Putin that Europeans would not set foot into Ukraine.

On May 8, several European leaders issued Russia with an ultimatum to return to the negotiation table and agree to an immediate 30-day-ceasefire. Trump simply butted in and offered Putin a way out by agreeing to negotiations without asking for so much as a ceasefire against civilian targets (despite his constant claims that his heart aches for every life lost in this war).

Trump even pressured Zelensky to take part in an evidently useless summit by accusing him (rather than Putin) of not wanting peace. America has shown a habit of telling the Europeans to shut up whenever they so much as draw breath to speak, so don't try and tell me Trump wants to see them speak up and be in charge of the whole situation.

And no, this is not some 4D chess game which only Trump could ever possibly hope to navigate. It was simply a failure. Russian media celebrated a victory over America today. In fact, even the pro-Trump 'New York Post' agrees and says Trump is "getting it all wrong". So, please, don't try to gaslight me here as though I'd made some outlandish claims.

I like you, I really do, but every once in a while you seriously lack the ability to call a spade a spade. Putin merely agreed to negotiating a memorandum about negotiations to be held in a distant future. It's as stupid as it sounds. If Kamala Harris had tried to pass off such pitiful results as a success, you'd have laughed her out of the room. And rightfully so.

You can't claim a win—nor even a minor success, for that matter—if one side makes all the concessions and the other side none.

 

[Connaught Ranger]

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[Fluff]

Again, why would you care? You wanted out and Trump keeps saying he will walk away if Ukraine doesnt agree to the terms... then walk away.

Is there an online negotiating course we can all go on.

Threatening to walk away, is as old as selling horses to gold miners.

Trump has discussions months ago with putin, he asks putin what he wants, putin says well, if I do a deal, I want trade sanctions lifted.

So now trump knows this, threatening to walk away is part of getting putin into the room. Same as getting the pope involved.

Trump knows putin is skittish, sure it looks like favouring, or sucking up, but something is happening, otherwise Peskov wouldn’t be talking it up.

Sure could still fail, but as a minimum that would see trump lose interest, removing any limits on the west, so europe can choose to send more stuff.- none of this putin wants.

It’s going to be a painful few months.

 

[Chazman]

Mate, you argue almost as erratically and inconsistently as your president.

Throughout his term, Biden shut down several attempts by the Europeans to escalate their support for Ukraine. The CIA's aforementioned former head of European operations has testified to this.

Trump supported the idea of European peacekeeping forces in Ukraine during his first meeting with Britain's Starmer, only to undermine him by having Witkoff promise Putin that Europeans would not set foot into Ukraine.

On May 8, several European leaders issued Russia with an ultimatum to return to the negotiation table and agree to an immediate 30-day-ceasefire. Trump simply butted in and offered Putin a way out by agreeing to negotiations without asking for so much as a ceasefire against civilian targets (despite his constant claims that his heart aches for every life lost in this war).

Trump even pressured Zelensky to take part in an evidently useless summit by accusing him (rather than Putin) of not wanting peace. America has shown a habit of telling the Europeans to shut up whenever they so much as draw breath to speak, so don't try and tell me Trump wants to see them speak up and be in charge of the whole situation.

And no, this is not some 4D chess game which only Trump could ever possibly hope to navigate. It was simply a failure. Russian media celebrated a victory over America today. In fact, even the pro-Trump 'New York Post' agrees and says Trump is "getting it all wrong". So, please, don't try to gaslight me here as though I'd made some outlandish claims.

I like you, I really do, but every once in a while you seriously lack the ability to call a spade a spade. Putin merely agreed to negotiating a memorandum about negotiations to be held in a distant future. It's as stupid as it sounds. If Kamala Harris had tried to pass off such pitiful results as a success, you'd have laughed her out of the room. And rightfully so.

You can't claim a win—nor even a minor success, for that matter—if one side makes all the concessions and the other side none.

Muck, I have to say that I like you too. What I like is that we can disagree and still have a polite conversation. That's the way it should be.

I freely admit, as I have several times, Trump says what he says. I personally might say or do things in a different way, but he is exponentially more successful than I and he usually gets what he wants, so I am willing to give him the space required. Like I've mentioned, take him seriously, not literally. That's just who he is.

Personally, I'm all for a European stabilizing force in Ukraine, and Trump did say several months ago, if France wants to do that, that would be great with him. It seems to me though that the French/UK commitment kept getting smaller and less aggressive and simply evaporated. I'm not sure if Witkoff promised Putin anything of the sort. But if he did, France/UK breathed a sigh of relief - because it didn't seem like they were raring to go.

Are there European leaders willing to put troops in Ukraine against Putin's wishes? I don't know, it doesn't seem so.

Regarding Zelensky, if he wasn't ready for a peace deal, Putin certainly wouldn't be. Zelensky needed to get in line before Putin, and it just may be that Putin never will. We'll see.

 

[primer]

Watched UK TV and they were debating the costs and thats the UK, the most proactive supporter.
Dunkirk day.

 

[Musashi]

MRGA

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[Musashi]

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[Musashi]

I think the Orcs know best:

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[Chazman]

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Happy to see you like Rubio too. He has exceeded my expectations.

 

[Chazman]

I mostly disagree with David, but I found this post very interesting.

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[Junglejim]

So it's China? Really?

Could be China, could be Germany or France, could be space aliens, or maybe none and Russia "steam rolls" Ukraine, again why do you care? You and your president wants peace at any cost and wants to walk away... then walk away.

 

[Chazman]

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[Junglejim]

Is there an online negotiating course we can all go on.

Threatening to walk away, is as old as selling horses to gold miners.

Trump has discussions months ago with putin, he asks putin what he wants, putin says well, if I do a deal, I want trade sanctions lifted.

So now trump knows this, threatening to walk away is part of getting putin into the room. Same as getting the pope involved.

Trump knows putin is skittish, sure it looks like favouring, or sucking up, but something is happening, otherwise Peskov wouldn’t be talking it up.

Sure could still fail, but as a minimum that would see trump lose interest, removing any limits on the west, so europe can choose to send more stuff.- none of this putin wants.

It’s going to be a painful few months.

Threats on negotiations only work if it has a detrimental effect on the other side and is actually used. Right now US threatening to walk away from this war, is what Russia wants, next best thing is an erratic US who cant decide and is dragging Ukraine with it.

right now. these threats are akin to a childs tantrum threats of running away , if they dont get his way... only works for woke western parents, unlike some who ended up locked up outside the house overnight.

 

[Chazman]

Could be China, could be Germany or France, could be space aliens, or maybe none and Russia "steam rolls" Ukraine, again why do you care? You and your president wants peace at any cost and wants to walk away... then walk away.

Oh, I care. Maybe you've missed the several hundred or is it several thousand of my posts in this thread. But in the end if peace can't be gotten, then that's that. Unless you feel, China, Germany, France or space aliens can make it happen.

 

[Junglejim]

Oh, I care. Maybe you've missed the several hundred or is it several thousand of my posts in this thread. But in the end if peace can't be gotten, then that's that. Unless you feel, China, Germany, France or space aliens can make it happen.

None of them can make it happen, not even the US. The only way for peace to happen is if they actually gave everything the Ukraine wants to destroy the Russian army and the Russian nation.

 

[Kassner]

one quarter of Russian gas, oil revenue anymore still comes from Europe. Dropping still.
So now we are pretending that because Europe didn't kill itself economically immediately without a withdrawal period, thus hindering Ukraine aid further its virtue signalling and a fake concern?

If it wasn't for this, you would find another reason to high horse.

Nobody is suggesting that Europe immediately cut off all Russian gas imports. However, said money to Putin should be mitigated by more money towards Ukraine. But of course Europe is not doing as such.
Instead Europe chooses to incessantly complain about perceived Russian biases by the Trump administration during peace talks.

It’s hypocrisy of the highest order.

As previously stated, Europe liked Biden’s ‘bleed Russia’ policy because it weakened Russia and the U.S. did the heavy lifting.
But now that Europe needs to step up more for its own security, it’s complain, complain, complain…..
Considering, perhaps Russia really isn't the existential threat Europe claims it is.