Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[Musashi]

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[CemalPasha]

@CemalPasha

Well, the rest of NATO wants Sweden and Finland in. I fail to see why we should allow the Turkish government to take dozens of other nations hostage over its internal conflicts. Perhaps Turkey should take the appropriate action and leave the alliance then.

To be realistically which dumb European wanted to see those in NATO?? Are they hungry for mushroom bombs?. Finland in NATO means paralysis for Murmansk line. Russia attack Ukraine their bro's for their own safety. They will start even war for this. Finland in NATO= Russia landlocked country. Why making front wide?? Do you think Russian army will be merciful like in Ukraine?? Turks are saving Europe indirectly by doing this. NATO is nothing but USA obbeyers. US wants their European pawns ready for upcoming Chinese war. Ready to get nuked.

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[CemalPasha]

You mean tzatziki?

I don't believe making a yogurt cucumber sauce is a requirement of purchasing F-35s. Actually, the only requirement is NOT purchasing Russian surface to air missiles which would be integrated into a combined arms system with the F-35, thus neutering them for the rest of the plane's users. Nope, I don't think the Greeks are stupid enough to do that. I mean, I can't imagine anyone who would screw up like that....can you?

Ohh really do you know Greece has S300 in the first place?

 

[muck]

Lighten up, Francis.

 

[pigmode]

To be realistically which dumb European wanted to see those in NATO?? Are they hungry for mushroom bombs?. Finland in NATO means paralysis for Murmansk line. Russia attack Ukraine their bro's for their own safety. They will start even war for this. Finland in NATO= Russia landlocked country. Why making front wide?? Do you think Russian army will be merciful like in Ukraine?? Turks are saving Europe indirectly by doing this. NATO is nothing but USA obbeyers. US wants their European pawns ready for upcoming Chinese war. Ready to get nuked.

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Wow, wtf? Is today April 1 in Turkey?

Ohh really do you know Greece has S300 in the first place?

The same ones they used for joint drills with the IAF?

 

[CemalPasha]

Turkey to reject Sweden and Finland's bid to join NATO

Turkey has told allies that it will reject Sweden and Finland's membership to NATO, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said in a video posted on his Twitter account on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

All about this;

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Also Turkey will demand F16-70 from US and lifting sanctions. Let's see blackmail gonna work. Hope Russians don't invade Finland cuz of Turkish denial.. Russia has last minute opportunity to secure Murmansk line.

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[CemalPasha]

Wow, wtf? Is today April 1 in Turkey?

Well last february everyone said Russians are bluffing, 2 year's ago COVID will not be in Europe just asian kinda ebola. Can you gave guarantee that joining of those will not trigger Russian bear? Btw I'm Belgian not in Turkey.

 

[Celo]

That doesn't matter though. Again, the mutual defense clause binds the entirety of the EU, to aid and assist any member country that is victim of aggression on it's territory, by "all the means in their power". Meaning, not only economic sanctions and weapons, but inevitably also by providing full fledged military support.
That argument is built on fallacies imo. The EU does not require to form an ad-hoc uniform army over night, to repulse Russia. That's not the case with NATO either. There is a reason interoperability exists and joint logistics and maneuver exercises are being carried out for decades. I think you might be underestimating EU militaries joint response capabilities, in case of an attack. Secondly, we see Europe's resolve in aiding Ukraine, despite Russian economic and military, even implied nuclear threats and counter-sanctions. Germany ignored them. Yes, not everyone hopped on the Bandwagon for various reasons, but most European countries provide at least humanitarian aid, the majority also weapons, including Germany who is now sending heavy weapons too, despite a series of Russian threats. They even decided to switch to alternatives, just because of this conflict, and the message couldn't be more clear:

This is, in response to a war of aggression against an outsider, a nation, that is neither EU, nor NATO member.
I think, if anything, that's a good indicatoin, that the EU would tolerate Russian aggresssion against it's members, considerably less.
Neither would Russia want to risk nuclear war either. Europe has nuclear weapons too. France and GB have their own arsenals, with hundreds of warheads. There is just no chance for Russia ever winning a war of aggression against Europe in their current state, even if NATO didn't exist. If they escalated it with nuclear attacks, they would be attacked as well and then it's Game Over for everyone.
It's not a question to me wheter NATO still served it's purpose. I think it does, regardless of wheter the EU itself had a mutual defense clause or not. But the cause exists and it's also a garantor. Ofc, without NATO, which brings an entity as powerful as the USA onto the playing field, the EU would be weaker by default. But not remotely enough for Russia, to consider going full tard.

I appreciate the insight and am learning a lot here, but I don’t see the EU states fighting Russia over the Baltic countries just because the EU has a “clause”. After all, national governments can chose to opt out despite EU directives requiring them to do something. Also, given all of the aid given to Ukraine, the US outnumbered the EU many times over in money and especially military equipment. As a matter of fact, the bulk of armaments was sent by the US and UK, not the EU collectively and especially not any single EU country.

 

[CemalPasha]

Ukrainian Army Form A New Brigade With Donated Tanks and Armored Personnel Carriers - MilitaryLeak.COM

The Ukrainian Army appears to be forming a new mechanized infantry brigade. The brigade is training on mostly donated equipment; ex-Polish T-72M1 tanks,

militaryleak.com

This is what they mean about Turkish infantry equipment

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[pigmode]

I appreciate the insight and am learning a lot here, but I don’t see the EU states fighting Russia over the Baltic countries just because the EU has a “clause”. After all, national governments can chose to opt out despite EU directives requiring them to do something. Also, given all of the aid given to Ukraine, the US outnumbered the EU many times over in money and especially military equipment. As a matter of fact, the bulk of armaments was sent by the US and UK, not the EU collectively and especially not any single EU country.

After the 2014 invasion there was much talk about the overall resolve of NATO members to adequately enforce article 5 in a live situation. Whatever doubt that existed then must still exist now. To what extent is probably unknowable till article 5 is actually put in practice.

edit: added "adequately"

 

[CemalPasha]

Lighten up, Francis.

The real boomer mr Putin will do good bazinga strikes take my notice...

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[Chazman]

Ohh really do you know Greece has S300 in the first place?

S300s are not S400s

 

[CemalPasha]

S300s are not S400s

Actually, the only requirement is NOT purchasing Russian surface to air missiles which would be integrated into a combined arms system with the F-35

If you say so..

 

[muck]

@CemalPasha

The Turkish government isn't threatening to veto Finland's and Sweden's membership to protect NATO. You're shifting goal posts here. And Sweden and Finland don't apply for membership because they're "USA obbeyers", neither are their European partners who're in favour of their entering.

Erdogan does what Erdogan does best, he's blackmailing Turkey's Western partners for funds and political favours. And the axe he has to grind with Sweden over PKK? Well, guess what, some of Turkey's Western partners aren't exactly happy either about Ankara's refusal to extradite Grey Wolves members wanted for murder. They aren't exactly happy about the Milli Görus organisation preaching hatred in Western European mosques. They aren't exactly happy with Erdogan telling Turkish immigrant communities that he's their president and that they needn't integrate.

Does Turkey not expect those countries to offer assistance in the event of an attack? So maybe, just maybe this isn't the right time for the Turkish president to act like a 5-year-old throwing a fit on the grocery store floor because mommy didn't buy him a candy bar.

 

[TheKiwi]

I feel dumber for having read that last page of the thread.

 

[CemalPasha]

@CemalPasha

The Turkish government isn't threatening to veto Finland's and Sweden's membership to protect NATO. You're shifting goal posts here. And Sweden and Finland don't apply for membership because they're "USA obbeyers", neither are their European partners who're in favour of their entering.

Erdogan does what Erdogan does best, he's blackmailing Turkey's Western partners for funds and political favours. And the axe he has to grind with Sweden over PKK? Well, guess what, some of Turkey's Western partners aren't exactly happy either about Ankara's refusal to extradite Grey Wolves members wanted for murder. They aren't exactly happy about the Milli Görus organisation preaching hatred in Western European mosques. They aren't exactly happy with Erdogan telling Turkish immigrant communities that he's their president and that they needn't integrate.

Does Turkey not expect those countries to offer assistance in the event of an attack? So maybe, just maybe this isn't the right time for the Turkish president to act like a 5-year-old throwing a fit on the grocery store floor because mommy didn't buy him a candy bar.

Ahh again accusations..

Milli görüş or gray Wolfe's ain't Terror organizations neither Committed attacks. I agree they have no place in Europe. But there is no such group ( not personal ones ) commiting crimes under name Gray wolfs or something similar. That's btw Armenian slander to justify their ASALA murders. There was some hired assassin's to kill those ASALA guy's in 90s & most of them nationalist one's.. Those mission's Committed even together with mossad. There was no evidence since than a Gray Wolf etc did attacks. I know they were wishing some stuff to black hardworking Turkish diaspora but their "throw sht if doesn't stick it leaves mark" policy doesn't work on us.
Secondly as a Turk from heart of Europe no Türk givin damn to Erdogan. We even mock with him. Only small part of religious Turks who vote him like max 5% of Turkish diaspora.. BTW know something before comment about it. Milli görüş is anti Erdogan group. You are confusing with Diyanet which means minister of religious affairs. Diyanet can't preach hate cuz it's secular and neutral organization. Don't compare Turkish mosques with salafi Saudi funded extreme one's. Some European countries think they *diyanet" hires spy's for Turkish state which is ridiculous rightist propaganda. Türkish state doesn't needs imams to spy we are up to 10 M in Europe will do freely & volunterly. If European governments doesn't want diyanet they should start wasting money to fund mosques recruiting their own imams. That would only help bankrupty Turkish economy..

I said it before of course Turkey will blackmail Sweden and Finland for the sake of own good. Lifting sanctions, obtaining F16 block 70 and get own deals. PKK etc we don't care about few militants livin there.

What i want ( own opinion ) to say by doing this chantage Turkey indirectly save Europe from being nuked. No one knows what Putin gonna do after seeing Us troops near Murmansk.. What will Finland bring expect more trouble? I'm concerned not as Turk but this time as Belgian. I waste my few years under Chinese virus don't want to whole one under fallout style life to rescue @ss of some Scandinavians. People waste their lives in Korea etc to get into alliance no free ticket nor free defence umbrella should givin to them. They have 500 k army can defend their selfs, Sweden has huge defence industry Finland has perfect geography. They gave perfect economy. Let them get 500 leo2a6 and they are safe.

 

[Musashi]

Opinion | We Should Say It. Russia Is Fascist.

If Vladimir Putin prevails in Ukraine, fascists around the world will take comfort.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Redav]

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[Gordus]

Why would they since most members are in NATO already? Believe me, Finland has been going around talking about this for the past 8 years to other EU countries and got a pretty much a shrug.

He suggests that if NATO suddenly didn't exist anymore, someone would form a military alliance like NATO, to which I say sure, that's one possibility. Another could be to simply rely on what already exists, for example EU article 42 or specificaly § 7, and in doubt just expand or revise them, and work on prompter and more proper implementation of all sections.

It's not as if those agreements can't be in one treaty. You can have a trade union, with militaries, which is the case with EU and make agreements on common defense policy, like the EU does. That's not the problem. The issue is as you pointed out and I also agree to some extent, that for example § 2, that obliges the framing of a "common Union defense policy", could be lacking. That's a valid issue to raise, but such uniformity issues apply to any pact, that has some 30 or 27 individual memebrs with their own militaries and political agenda. In any case, they don't negate a binding agreement.

all, national governments can chose to opt out despite EU directives requiring them to do something.

Binding obligation is binding. Why make a possible breach of treaty a EU thing ? It's not. The very same concern can be applied to NATO and any other pact. There's always been some doubt about NATO intervening or fully committing in case Russia ever attacked the Baltics. It's not about that.

Really, we are arguing over nothing. We all agree that NATO is a much greater deterrent anyway. The question was, what would happen if NATO didn't exist, to which I reminded, that there would at least still be a binding defense clause, which obliges all EU members to intervene with all means in their power to defend against aggression. That's all.

 

[Mordoror]

Mordoror —I couldn’t find any background on you in the “Introduce Yourself” thread. Thus, I am curious of your background, especially in relation to military matters (e.g., academic studies, service, etc.,) if you are willing to share?

My real military experience is limited to 10 months as field nurse during National Service in French Army
Plenty of military in the (former) JNA (National Yugoslav Army) family members
A deep interest for history, strategy and theatre operations (not so much on tactics, i am not a "such equipment is a wunderwaffen" whereaboo train)
Let's say that i am an heavy reader of doctrinal manuals and that i have the habit to cross check informations from various sources given my real job (which is associate professor in Infectiology)