Politics New Zealand launches world's first HIV positive sperm bank

[muck]

Meanwhile where would we be as a society without experimenting.

I'm not against experimenting and frankly, I don't really care about the medical risk either. My objections lie elsewhere:

For one thing, I reject @Mordoror's notion any objections to HIV-positive sperm donors are motivated by bigotry and ignorance. The truth is our very genes compel us to avoid potential sources of pathogens. We don't need to be taught not to lick the doorhandle of a public restroom; we just don't do it. It's a natural human behaviour.

Secondly, I'm firmly at odds with the liberal notion anybody ought to have the right to do and become anything they want regardless of their qualifications and able-bodiedness.

No one gave a toss about that guy I'd went to school with who couldn't fulfill his dream of becoming a police officer because he's only 5'2''.
No one gave a toss about my sister-in-law whose poor eyesight didn't allow her to become a pilot.

I don't see why I ought to give a toss about the inability of a few HIV-positive dudes to donate sperm. Or blood, for that matter, but even that's become disputed now for the sake of "diversity".

 

[TheKiwi]

I'd be a lot more worried if people were being forced to accept donations from this source. But they're not. It's entirely voluntary. So like all other volunatary transactions between people, I won't give a "toss"...

 

[Mordoror]

Let's not forget that, in the name of "reducing stigma" and "fighting bigotry", the State of California made it a misdeamenor to knowingly infect someone with HIV without their knowledge.

You know... "more facts less bigotry" mentality.

As for "AIDS is not fatal anymore" around 700k people, in 2018, would beg to differ.

Courtesy of WHO:



More facts less bigotry, right?

Nah, I guess WHO are just a bunch of bigots... the risk is so worth it! You know? Think of it as a brave act to fight bigotry!

Read before posting and coming as an ass
From my own post "nobody dies of AIDS in developed countries provided you have access to drug and follow the drug intake protocol".
The death are occuring in the vast majority in Africa then Asia and South America
Europe/USa ? It is mostly marginal, migrants and drug users so a tiny fraction.
More reading and information browsing, less bigotry and failed challenging, yes...

 

[Mordoror]

There is no such thing as no risk, additionally just because the virus is undetectable doesn't mean it's cured and there could be viral mutation.

Bigotry? Over not wanting to increase my chances of getting a deadly communicable disease? Please.

Seriuosly, there are studies, protocols, follows up and datas.
People are discussing here without haven checked the facts. The reaction is "yeurk".
Much like when in the 80s it was "yeurk" to shake the hands of an HIV+ or use the same bathroom.
Yes it is bigotry based on an unjustified fear.
The datas are clear: not detectable virus = no transmission. This is documented over tenth of thousand of cases over a decade.

We are in biology, i am not saying it may never happen but the medical corps is confident enough to say the risk is null. And in any case can be treatef if it accidentaly happen.

The point is, and seeing the reactions here, as Kiwi pointed, this "special" sperm bank will not get a lot of customers....

 

[Jake84]

Gents, this is a fairly insightful discussion from all posters involved, let’s not turn it into a pissing contest and keep the « ass » snipe comments out of it, please.

 

[muck]

I'd be a lot more worried if people were being forced to accept donations from this source. But they're not. It's entirely voluntary.

Here's what I'd expect is going to happen:

1. That sperm bank isn't going to see many clients.
2. Someone's going to link its lack of success to discrimination against HIV-positive men, and that "discrimination" will be regarded as proof of homophobia. (Because no straight man has ever contracted the virus, am I right?)
3. Your dipshit prime minister or someone of that calibre is going to draft a law that'll prohibit run-off-the-mill sperm banks from testing for HIV. Gone will be the element of voluntariness.

How do I know? The blood donations system in Germany has arrived at step numéro deux.

1. The German Red Cross doesn't accept blood donations from gay men since they have a statistically proven higher risk of contracting HIV. Decrying this, the usual suspects have established blood banks for men who don't want to reveal whether they're homosexual or not. Healthcare insurance providers (who're in charge of managing the system) have refused to cooperate with said blood banks.
2. Said blood banks argue anyone supporting this "segregation", as they call it, isn't actually afraid of contracting HIV but just doesn't want to have "gay blood" pumping through their veins. As a consequence, they've been lobbying for a law to force the Red Cross to change its protocols.
3. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Mordoror]

Salmonellae don't cause an outbreak of salmonellosis either unless the bacteria concentration reaches critical levels, yet still I wouldn't volunteer to eat a raw chicken wing, thank you very much. Don't be holier than the pope, for heaven's sake.

Again, the medical corps is saying the risk is null as in 0.0. This is not based on feel good mentality but base on cases studies from thousand of mix couples hiv+/hiv- and hiv+pregnant women.
The physiopathology of HIV explains it well.
You guys are going against a consensus declaration from the doctors taking care of HIV populations both in USA and Europe.
Tell me who is hollier than the pope here.
I can understand the fear, the questions but all of you are questioning hundred of professionals while not digging the science datas about the issue.
I am on mobile i ll find you the consensus conferences ASAP.
Maybe you'd understand why i am grumpy at some post.
I reminds me the former Ebola thread on mp.net. A lot of assumptions, not enough hard facts.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Damn... such bigotry.

That being said, the same sort of outcry has been witnessed in France on a few occasions "why won't you let us homosexuals donate our blood in case of emergency? That's homophobic and bigoted!".

 

[Mordoror]

consensus statements :

The benefits of HIV treatment: undetectable means you do not pass on the virus

Since its introduction in the 1990s, the main aim of combination antiretroviral therapy (ART) for HIV has been to halt the progression of the infection, maintaining the health of the HIV-positive person taking treatment. In addition to this, the impact of treatment as prevention has been well...

www.ecdc.europa.eu

Déclaration de consensus

À l'image d'une trentaine d'organisations de lutte contre le sida, incluant l'International Aids Society ou NAM Aidsmap, Sidaction a signé une déclaration internationale qui confirme, sur la base de preuves scientifiques, qu'une personne sous traitement ARV avec une charge virale indétectable ne...

www.sidaction.org

NAM endorses Undetectable equals Untransmittable (U=U) consensus statement

NAM aidsmap, one of the foremost sources of HIV information in the world, strongly endorses the ‘Undetectable Equals Untransmittable’ (U=U) Consensus Statement issued by the Prevention Access Campaign. NAM’s Executive Director, Matthew Hodson, says, “The scientific evidence is clear. Someone...

www.aidsmap.com

Risk of HIV transmission through condomless sex in serodifferent gay couples with the HIV-positive partner taking suppressive antiretroviral therapy (PARTNER): final results of a multicentre, prospective, observational study - PubMed

National Institute for Health Research.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

HIV Viral Load and Transmissibility of HIV Infection

In this Viewpoint, Fauci and colleagues from NIAID review the evidence underlying the 2016 Prevention Access Campaign’s “Undetectable = Untransmittable (U = U)” HIV public health initiative, arguing that the science now supports elimination of the stigma associated with HIV infection.

jamanetwork.com

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanhiv/article/PIIS2352-3018(17)30183-2/fulltext?elsca1=etoc

see also : HPTN 052 trial , PARTNER study and Opposite Attracts study

 

[riderboy]

It's an interesting phenomena that opposing the potential spread of deadly diseases is somehow viewed as not being "woke". I don't trust viruses. They change, mutate their little antigenic coats and can become a real bother. Just because we have effective anti-viral agents now doesn't mean that will always be the case, so for me, the emphasis should be using every available resource to eradicate as much of the virus as we can. Medicine has done such a great job minimizing the impact of infectious diseases that we now see people like anti-vaxxers and social justice warriors trying to determine health care policy. God help us.

 

[PEMM]

No viral detection means technically no risk of transmission. 0. zilch. nada. This is a consensus, worldwide fact known for years (datas from 2011)

Because Mr. Murphy lives here, I hope they make enough tests on the donor to rule out a fuckup.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Read before posting and coming as an ass
From my own post "nobody dies of AIDS in developed countries provided you have access to drug and follow the drug intake protocol".
The death are occuring in the vast majority in Africa then Asia and South America
Europe/USa ? It is mostly marginal, migrants and drug users so a tiny fraction.
More reading and information browsing, less bigotry and failed challenging, yes...

Useless comment. And I don't read your posts either.

But here is for you, showing you are wrong and your call for "muh bigotry" is nothing but misplaced contrarian virtue signaling.

Global HIV & AIDS statistics — Fact sheet

Latest AIDS data, HIV data. Preliminary UNAIDS 2021 epidemiological estimates: 37.6 million [30.2 million–45.0 million] people globally were living with HIV in 2020. 1.5 million [1.1 million–2.1 million] people became newly infected with HIV in 2020. 690 000 [480 000–1 million] people died from...

www.unaids.org

https://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/media_asset/UNAIDS_FactSheet_en.pdf

*Oh my god! the bigotry! it's too much! I can't even!*


Here, "read before posting and coming as an ass" indeed.
And abstain from petty childish attacks and insults...

 

[Mordoror]

Useless comment. And I don't read your posts either.

But here is for you, showing you are wrong and your call for "muh bigotry" is nothing but misplaced contrarian virtue signaling.

Global HIV & AIDS statistics — Fact sheet

Latest AIDS data, HIV data. Preliminary UNAIDS 2021 epidemiological estimates: 37.6 million [30.2 million–45.0 million] people globally were living with HIV in 2020. 1.5 million [1.1 million–2.1 million] people became newly infected with HIV in 2020. 690 000 [480 000–1 million] people died from...

www.unaids.org

https://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/media_asset/UNAIDS_FactSheet_en.pdf

*Oh my god! the bigotry! it's too much! I can't even!*


Here, "read before posting and coming as an ass" indeed.
And abstain from petty childish attacks and insults...

That's it. Learn to read and mainly learn to understand what you are talking about
And to be clear
1- there is NOTHING in what you quoted that contradicts my statement
2- here is for you : http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.623?lang=en
3- here is for you again : https://www.ofdt.fr/statistiques-et...es-au-stade-sida-chez-les-usagers-de-drogues/
4: and FYI again : https://cns.sante.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/experts-vih_epidemio.pdf
5 a little more :https://www.iresp.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/QSPn--24-sida-immigr--s-1.pdf



Bad luck this is something i am working in so spare me "you are wrong" and your attempts at looking smart. Not gonna work in this field.
About the childish attacks, i'll hold my tongue about your own behaviour, a mod asked to stop the pissing contest.
I'd say just one thing "paille, poutre..."

 

[riderboy]

Useless comment. And I don't read your posts either.

But here is for you, showing you are wrong and your call for "muh bigotry" is nothing but misplaced contrarian virtue signaling.

Global HIV & AIDS statistics — Fact sheet

Latest AIDS data, HIV data. Preliminary UNAIDS 2021 epidemiological estimates: 37.6 million [30.2 million–45.0 million] people globally were living with HIV in 2020. 1.5 million [1.1 million–2.1 million] people became newly infected with HIV in 2020. 690 000 [480 000–1 million] people died from...

www.unaids.org

https://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/media_asset/UNAIDS_FactSheet_en.pdf

*Oh my god! the bigotry! it's too much! I can't even!*


Here, "read before posting and coming as an ass" indeed.
And abstain from petty childish attacks and insults...

Putting him on ignore was one of the best things I’ve ever done. When he has nothing to contribute or he’s wrong, he slings mud. Which is the vast majority of the time.

 

[primer]

Worlds first..Government sets target to make New Zealand 'predator-free' by 2050
The photo sums the affair well and was also world news for the moment... mindless audacious claims is what the world news thrives on.
problem for us is our politicians pander to it, its their only way to international recognition, world first banning oil exploration, worlds extremist gun bans, censor world internet, my world nuke free moment and all that from the latest PM here in NZ. Please ignore us it only encourages them into more stupid things.

 

[JimHPTN]

It's an interesting phenomena that opposing the potential spread of deadly diseases is somehow viewed as not being "woke". I don't trust viruses. They change, mutate their little antigenic coats and can become a real bother. Just because we have effective anti-viral agents now doesn't mean that will always be the case, so for me, the emphasis should be using every available resource to eradicate as much of the virus as we can. Medicine has done such a great job minimizing the impact of infectious diseases that we now see people like anti-vaxxers and social justice warriors trying to determine health care policy. God help us.

This. I'm not a doctor nor am I a biologist, but I do know that viral mutations are quite common and unpredictable so I wouldn't want to take the chance however small it might be. Also, as @PEMM points out, Murphy is alive and well thus adding to my misgivings about this plan.

 

[Junglejim]

My only issue is, its playing against probabilities. and trusting the sperm bank system to be extra careful with the screening and not cutting corners.... something that happens.

 

[Mordoror]

This. I'm not a doctor nor am I a biologist, but I do know that viral mutations are quite common and unpredictable so I wouldn't want to take the chance however small it might be. Also, as @PEMM points out, Murphy is alive and well thus adding to my misgivings about this plan.

You concern is legit. However, the virus has to multiply itself to get mutations in its genetic material. Not detectable circulating virus means also that the virus is not replicating itself which means no mutations can appear.
Furthermore, the treatment is comprising 3 drugs (tri-therapy) with 3 different targets in the virus cycle which mean it would have to get 3 different mutations to escape the treatment.
Treatment which is a first line, second and third lines with other molecules exist.
That you wouldn't want to take the chance, i am OK with it, i understand it and as Kiwi said, nobody forces people to receive from that specific sperm bank which imo will fail pretty rapidly because of that.
However, from a viral infection pov, the risk is close to 0.0. In fact far less that blood receiving, surgery or dentist intervention, organ graft etc