Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[PegAsus]

 

[Fluff]

EU processes are too slow and there are all these brake men like Hungary.

So I think EU role will be hosting the meetings but the action needs to happen within or outside EU.

One of the reasons we left. U.K. is still a big country, rich, and likes to be involved diplomatically with everyone. In the eu we were chained to Germany that can’t get past atoning for past sins, and the ex soviet countries desperate to keep the peace with Russia.

 

[LimaCharles]

Zelensky was elected on the election promise that he would conduct negotiations with Russia for a lasting peace. He has made over 20 agreements with the ruZZians, all of which they have broken, and in the end ruZZia invaded Ukraine.

Who would hold elections under such circumstances? Besides, the Ukrainian parliament has already confirmed him in office several times, most recently with, I think, 268 votes (of 280). Is it usual for a parliament to confirm a dictator in office?

And no, I have no right to force others to fight a war, but I do have the right to say that others are free to decide whether they want to continue fighting or not. And that nobody can decide that but them.

There were plenty of elections during WW2, 1944 for us. And knowing all of the corruption that happened with the Biden Crime Family, it gives a right to raise an eyebrow and suspect at those things for their legitimacy.

I never said they should stop fighting. I simply made points why we need to stop telling us to fund and arm them, and why the goal of getting their lands back won't work unless all of NATO invaded and what the repercussions would be if that were to happen. Reading critically goes a long way. Go ahead and tell them to keep fighting, I will continue to vote and support for the person that will stop this unconditional and endless money and materials train on our end because we are only keeping them fighting even longer for next to zero gains.

 

[LimaCharles]

View attachment 520579
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You footing the bill?

 

[primer]

Carlsen did not know the UK had nukes. Thought that was dangerous. In that interview with Morgan. Talk about dissinformation that could be an excuse to get it wrong but everybody knows this. I think its a case of another expert American with no knowledge with influence and this is the real danger.

 

[Fluff]

Fair bit of bickering going on, which is healthy. Imagine how the phone lines from eu to USA are doing.

Still a fair chance this is all a show, to get putin in a room, and trump can look at putins cards, and say is that all you got?

See how quick we got all European leaders in a room?

Offering troops- anyone believe putin wants nato troops on his border, with their elint systems, etc.

 

[Mike1976]

There were plenty of elections during WW2, 1944 for us.

Like where?

The US, Canada and Australia are all I can think of that held free elections (not elections or referenda at gunpoint). How many of these were bombed on a daily basis? None of them were. They were all conveniently located very far from the operational theatres. The few times the territory of these nations were directly attacked are so renowned because it was so rare.

Would you like to visit a polling station knowing the russians have always prioritised large gatherings and public venues such as train and bus stations, schools and hospitals and have the means to pin-point target them at any time, within minutes, and under limited air defences?

They did it in Chechnya, in Georgia, in Eastern Ukraine, in Syria, in Libya.

Are you willing to bet your own life and that of your family members on it that this one time they'll actually respect the Geneva Convention, UN Charter, basic human rights etc?

 

[LimaCharles]

Like where?

The US, Canada and Australia are all I can think of that held free elections (not elections or referenda at gunpoint). How many of these were bombed on a daily basis? None of them were.

Would you like to visit a polling station knowing the russians have always prioritised large gatherings and public venues such as train and bus stations, schools and hospitals and have the means to pin-point target them at any time, within minutes?

Did it in Chechnya, did it it Georgia, did it in Eastern Ukraine.

Are you willing to bet your own life and that of your family members on it that this one time they'll actually respect the Geneva Convention?

That is entirely subjective.

Iraqis had done it under threats of mass bombing casualties. They WANTED to vote and had pride in doing so.

And I don't understand what my family here in the USA and the Geneva convention have to do with what is going on there other than an appeal to emotions plea (fallacy).

Again for the record, I support Ukraine and side with them but it's not unconditionally like a fool, or to be hindered to not question when something fvcky is afoot or to not be able to have a middle ground is outright indefensible as an argument in any intellectual setting.

 

[Chazman]

That is entirely subjective.

Iraqis had done it under threats of mass bombing casualties. They WANTED to vote and had pride in doing so.

And I don't understand what my family here in the USA and the Geneva convention have to do with what is going on there other than an appeal to emotions plea (fallacy).

Again for the record, I support Ukraine and side with them but it's not unconditionally like a fool, or to be hindered to not question when something fvcky is afoot or to not be able to have a middle ground is outright indefensible as an argument in any intellectual setting.

I feel the same. I support Ukraine and I support the Ukrainian people, but it seems that any questions asked or any deviation from the hive mind makes you a Putin supporter around here.

 

[Mike1976]

That is entirely subjective.

Iraqis had done it under threats of mass bombing casualties. They WANTED to vote and had pride in doing so.

And I don't understand what my family here in the USA and the Geneva convention have to do with what is going on there other than an appeal to emotions plea (fallacy).

Well I mean you're perfectly willing to demand a country holds an election and endanger it's citizenry doing so. You see me asking you if you'd be ok with that being demanded of you if it were your country as an appeal to emotions. But on the other hand you have no problem telling others here to go fight in Ukraine if they feel that strongly, playing on people's emotions (self-preservation) all the same.

Whenever you're not deferring questions you're an enormous hypocrite.

 

[LimaCharles]

I feel the same. I support Ukraine and I support the Ukrainian people, but it seems that any questions asked or any deviation from the hive mind makes you a Putin supporter around here.

The last time I blindly followed the pack, our at the time fearless leader lead us into a minefield that I being the very last vehicle and our rear gun truck, had to get out on foot, and ground guide our entire logpac safely out. The convoy commander's driver even saw the probes and pointed it out yet it wasn't stopped until a PLS had struck one. And my truck providing cover watching the convoy back out was hit by an RPG and killed my medic.

I now question all the things that are more than blatantly rife with the airs of tomfoolery.

I digress.

It's good to have disagreements. Disagreements can cause growth and POV's to change if the discussion is done cordially and without misinformation. I don't count the fallacies that were given to me as being cordial or factual because it's an insult to my intelligence. Any way, all an echo chamber does is stifle discussions and we lose all grey areas of reproach.

 

[LimaCharles]

Well I mean you're perfectly willing to demand a country holds an election and endanger it's citizenry doing so. You see me asking you if you'd be ok with that being demanded of you if it were your country as an appeal to emotions. But on the other hand you have no problem telling others here to go fight in Ukraine if they feel that strongly, playing on people's emotions (self-preservation) all the same.

Whenever you're not deferring questions you're an enormous hypocrite.

I never said such thing you instantly assumed and misread using selective listening because you already had a confirmation bias from the get go. And that wasn't the actual argument, you made it to be though and that my friend is a fallacy. The original argument was how it made him look like a tyrant. Again, nothing was demanded by me so this is rather deceptional in discussing any further.

And you again did not listen critically, they can fight all they want but when they ask for money and guns from the USA, I as a USA voter and a taxpayer have a now vested interest in this and my conditions is conditional or no more help whatsoever.

Are you going to fight for Ukraine? Yes or no? There is only yes or no for an answer and no tap tapdancing. You accuse me of being a hypocrite, now it's your turn to be called out for your projections of it at me. I have yet to even be a hypocrite yet you are showing your true colors of being one.

 

[PEMM]

Well, let’s see.

France, Britain propose partial one-month Ukraine truce, Macron tells Le Figaro

PARIS - France and Britain are proposing a partial one-month truce between Russia and Ukraine that would not cover ground fighting, French President Emmanuel Macron told the daily newspaper Le Figaro on Sunday.

However, Macron said the truce would cover air, sea and energy infrastructure attacks.

"In the event of a ceasefire, it would be very difficult to verify (fighting) along the front was being respected," Macron told Le Figaro, adding that the front line was equivalent to the distance between Paris and Budapest.

Macron spoke to Le Figaro as he flew to London for a meeting with European leaders, convened by British Prime Minister Keir Starmer to advance efforts at drawing up a Ukraine peace plan.

The summit in London came two days after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy's White House meeting with U.S. President Donald Trump ended in acrimony. World leaders have offered a strong show of support to the Ukrainian leader and promised to do more to help his nation.

Under the Franco-British proposal, European ground troops would only be deployed to Ukraine in a second phase, Macron said.

"There will be no European troops on Ukrainian soil in the coming weeks," Le Figaro quoted Macron as saying.

"The question is how we use this time to try to obtain a truce, with negotiations that will take several weeks and then, once peace is signed, a (troop) deployment."

Zelenskiy, asked if he was aware of the plan, told reporters in London: "I'm aware of everything."

Macron has said his country and other European nations must spend more on defense. He told Le Figaro that this might mean in the region of 3% to 3.5% of gross domestic product. The European Commission also needed to be more innovative in financing defense spending, he said. REUTERS

France, Britain propose partial one-month Ukraine truce, Macron tells Le Figaro

The truce would cover air, sea and energy infrastructure attacks, but not ground fighting. Read more at straitstimes.com.

www.straitstimes.com

 

[primer]

Imagine if China EU have peacekeepers there, not out of the realms.

 

[Chazman]

Well, let’s see.

Well, at least a step forward.

 

[LimaCharles]

Imagine if China EU have peacekeepers there, not out of the realms.

I'mma say it, there is some unsaid love hate going on between the two countries with China and Russia. They would have the balls to tell them no and to pound sand if breaking rules.

I'm playing the devil's advocate by the way.

 

[LimaCharles]

And on another note...

Zelensky-Starmer latest: Zelensky tells BBC Ukraine 'ready to sign' minerals deal with US

The Ukrainian president's comments to Laura Kuenssberg came after he failed to sign the deal at the White House on Friday.

www.bbc.com

 

[Mark Sman]

I know the Chinese would like economic access in Ukraine, and probably to build influence.

But the only reason I can theorize for them to put boots on the ground would be to protect their investment.

 

[primer]

The belt road has this weird kink in it where it heads to Moscow from the Balkans. Several thousand miles more..we all know nobody wil pay that freight. Moscows just a dead end shunt line in the scheme of things.

 

[Chazman]

And on another note...

Zelensky-Starmer latest: Zelensky tells BBC Ukraine 'ready to sign' minerals deal with US

The Ukrainian president's comments to Laura Kuenssberg came after he failed to sign the deal at the White House on Friday.

www.bbc.com

Of course he's going to sign it.