Warfare Russia/Ukraine War
- Thread starter morris
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Good that this is considered as Ukraine does not have an infinite supply of S300's and needs the ability to take the war to the Russians, but this really makes me angry. Now suddenly everything is available, in large quantities and the west has money for all kinds of support and sanctions. However, in the months leading to the invasion none of it was available out of "fear of provoking Russia" or "escalating the situation". They saw Afghanistan and thought that the Ukrainians would be the same although everyone who has been on the spot in Ukraine has claimed differently (also f them for comparing middle eastern medieval goat f-ers with 21st century Europeans with clear national consciences).
If any of the appeasement policy idiots were only able to give a fraction of what was done so far before the war, there would not have been a war in the first place. Let's say Ukraine had for example besides the Javelins, Stingers and NLAW's delivered to her M777's, Brimstones, long range anti-ship missiles and a Germany had built an LNG terminal & stopped Nord Stream 2 we most probably would not have all been in this mess.
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Both sides rely on propaganda to galvanise support for their war effort. That won't be news to anybody.You have to take any report coming out of Ukraine atm. With a grain of salt mate.
When compared to Russia, however, Ukraine is almost a role model of liberty. Not only does Moscow enjoy an exceedingly greater degree of control over the media and has a proven record of extensive disinformation campaigns; moreover, the Ukrainian people's unfettered access to the internet creates a counter-public if need be, making it more difficult for pro-Ukrainian sources to spread downright lies.
So, yes, all news from this war needs to be looked at oas bjectively as possible. But putting Ukraine and Russia on a level with each other in terms of credibility strikes me as absurd. Regardless of how untrustworthy one thinks Ukrainian sources might be, treating them as just as untrustworthy (or worse) than Russian ones is make-believe spread either by experts who want to show off their "critical thinking" – or by pro-Russian trolls
Sorry, but that's just nonsense.
Any attempt to arm Ukraine in the manner it's being done now would've confirmed Putin's propaganda and would've most certainly made an invasion even more likely. They're now showing off confiscated Western weaponry to justify their war like: See, we told you the Ukrainians were in cahoots with NATO. Had NATO produced such images itself and lightened the regime's burden of proof, the outcome would've been the same.
I also don't think that Ukrainian arsenals of Western provenance would've discouraged Putin from going to war. Ukraine's military strength (or perceived lack thereof) factored little into the decision-making process of a government being fed the intel it wanted to hear.
This war was started by ideologues, not strategists.
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based on the arms shipments received so far, the formula is simple.
It would have been possible to increase the defensive capabilities of the Ukrainian Defence Forces by leaps and bounds (for example, if there were already a few hundred NLAW, JAVELIN etc in the Herson area) faster than Russian logistics could have deployed the forces to launch operations.
But pld the German ministry told the Ukrainian ambassador shortly before the invasion started that they were not supplying anything because the Ukrainians would give up within days.
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Sorry , but no. This invasion was not planned out or thought of yesterday. The west did not provide weapons, other than few javelins last moment, and yet Putin invaded. The only thing that has ever stopped men like him is the real possibility of failure.
Your reasoning is exactly what has led to the invasion. Who cares about his "justifications" and their propaganda as long as his troops are behind the border. We have seen that even without weapon deliveries he found a way to justify the invasion and turn on the propaganda at full.
Putin and the likes need to understand the escalations, de-escalations and concessions are 2 way streets. If only one of the sides is the one stepping on its toes, then the other side will always go as far as possible and once you decide to make your stand he has a significant advantage.
P.s Ukraine did not need to be armed as it is right now. However, there could have been more serious efforts, at least to send a stronger message and to make sure they have some training and logistics for certain systems before the actual war. An example, could have been the first M777 delivery of 18 guns. It's a lot easier to go from 18 do 100 then from 0 to 18 and then 100. Same with the other systems.
What is even more infuriating is that Ukraine was willing to pay and purchase systems leading up to the war and countries even refused to sell and now they are giving the same or even more for free.
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M
Mordoror
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Then, with a reinforced UKA by NATO stuff, it is possible if not probable that Russian planification would have been more smartly done and more based on military risk factor assessment rather than political assessment of a weak and ready to crumble UKA
Which means that some blunders we have seen in the early day would/may have been avoided
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Is there any possibility that someone on top of the apc survived this?
2 crew + at least 5 on top and a capacity to carry 11 inside......
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I reckon, yes. ATGM's are designed to focus as much energy as possible into liner, not the external explosion. Moreover, not necessarily everybody inside dies either. All those impressive kabooms from ATGM's we've seen so far are due to ammo detonation. I had a conversation once with a tank commander, whose Patton got hit during Yom Kippour war by Sager. Only his gunner got killed, he got away with shrapnel in his legs, and the loader was saved by the main gun's breech, which stopped the liner, IIRC.
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So its still NATo's fault Russia invaded? I dont think so.
Had NATO or whoever in the west, armed Ukr, Russia would have used it as 'proof' of NATO planned expansion, and still gone in.
sorry, but given Putin has kept going, despite the huge losses, says he was going in, come what may.
Someone on twitter said, Putin cant win, and cant withdraw i.e . lose, so both sides now grind on.
Usually when you dont win, you call a draw(as your usually ahead). Putin should have called a draw 2 months ago......
oh... I am not a forgiving person.
So I hope most of you survived.
Because the Russians just throw a few shovels of dirt on the dead and deny they were there, and that's it.
But the care of the wounded ...
Although ....
Have you heard of the Samovars?
That's what they called the war invalids who lost their legs and limbs in WWII.
Beggars.
Until the Russian leadership said, this is intolerable, something must be done.
So they were forcibly taken off the streets and put in closed institutions.
"..... Just a ruble, my beauty, for the invalid! Charlotte involuntarily avoided him, so frightened was she by the way he was growing out of the ground. It was then that she noticed the army invalids - the 'samovars' - swarming around the market. Sometimes on small tyre wheels, sometimes on mere ball-bearings, they wheeled their crates to the exit, calling out to people for money or tobacco. Some gave, others quickened their steps, others cursed and added in a lecture: 'You are being taken for a ride by the state... Have you no shame?'...
... Charlotte finished her narrative on the way back.
- The authorities had finally had enough of these cripples in the square, their shouting, their fighting. But mostly, they had cast a bad light on the great Victory. You know, they prefer it when a soldier is brave and smiling, or ... falls on the battlefield. And they ... In a word, several trucks arrived one day, the police took the samovars out of their crates and threw them into the hold. Just as they throw the wooden legs onto the wagon. A woman in Moscow told me that they were taken to an island in the northern lakes. An old leper colony had been converted for them... I tried to inquire about the colony in the autumn. I thought I'd go there to work. But when I got there in the spring, I was told that there were no more invalids on the island and that the leper colony had been dismantled... Otherwise, it was a very beautiful place. ..." (Andrei Makine: The French Legacy)
M
Mordoror
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Oh FFS
Read what is written, no what your circular neuron wants to read
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I suppose it's possible the troops chose to ride on the roof instead of within the APC.
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One could point out that the Ukrainian pot is being brutally stirred by the Kremlin, not by NATO. And has been so in the past fifteen years.
As it is known, the Russian sapper robots "Uran-6" were delivered by Russia to Ukraine, previously reported, we show the direct work of the operator to control the mine clearance robot "Uran-6" in Ukraine. The robot's reservation allows you to withstand the explosion of even an anti-tank mine. The control of the military robot "Uranus-6" is remote. The main task of the sapper robot is to make passages in minefields and quickly clear the areas.
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