Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[Connaught Ranger]

Russians appear to have bombed Azovstal with White Phosphorus

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The Jus in Bello of White Phosphorus: Getting the Law Correct

Focusing on the weapon, and not how it is being used, muddies the law and facts surrounding the circumstances in which a war crime may have occurred.

www.lawfareblog.com

 

[Gordus]

If it's banned depends on whether you consider Azovstal a civilian or a military area .... WP is banned in inhabited enironments like towns. Azovstal in it's current state it's debatable.

Legal issues aside, it's only gonna sway public opinion even more against Russia, in Ukraine and beyond ... granted, there is little reputation or affection still to be lost left.

Just sharing the fact, not commenting on the legality.

That besides, now watching the clips, not sure wheter those are incendiary cluster munition actualy.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

So Kirby didn't send the firing system or the guided munitions? What was the point of it then.

Technically the US answered the call for more guns sent by Ukraine by shipping them M777.

As I pointed out, without the firing system or guided munitions a M777 is more or less the same thing as a MSTA-B. Well, the M777 is 155mm and the MSTA-B 152mm, but I suppose the effect will be the same for whoever is on the receiving end.


It seems that, in the end, the Ukrainian army does spend its equipment pretty fast. Early on during the war some NATO official talked about Ukraine going through its stock of donated weapons at an alarming speed. Losses suffered by Ukraine are also relatively high, so maybe risking a "run of the hill" plain M777 is less of a dramatic loss than an upgraded one. The US are probably not to keen on seeing their stuff getting captured by Russia either.

In the end it is still a 155mm field artillery gun. Just like the T72 donated by Poland, though objectively useless as front line units, are still "armored mobile 125mm gun platforms". It's not much, but it is still something and better than nothing.
When/if the Pzh2000 ever get delivered to Ukraine now that will be more interesting.

 

[Fluff]

Technically the US answered the call for more guns sent by Ukraine by shipping them M777.

As I pointed out, without the firing system or guided munitions a M777 is more or less the same thing as a MSTA-B. Well, the M777 is 155mm and the MSTA-B 152mm, but I suppose the effect will be the same for whoever is on the receiving end.


It seems that, in the end, the Ukrainian army does spend its equipment pretty fast. Early on during the war some NATO official talked about Ukraine going through its stock of donated weapons at an alarming speed. Losses suffered by Ukraine are also relatively high, so maybe risking a "run of the hill" plain M777 is less of a dramatic loss than an upgraded one. The US are probably not to keen on seeing their stuff getting captured by Russia either.

In the end it is still a 155mm field artillery gun. Just like the T72 donated by Poland, though objectively useless as front line units, are still "armored mobile 125mm gun platforms". It's not much, but it is still something and better than nothing.
When/if the Pzh2000 ever get delivered to Ukraine now that will be more interesting.

Part of this, is so Ukr can be supplied with relatively unlimited amounts of 155mm ammo.

This war shows both sides losing kit at crazy rates, more notably the Russians. Armchair generals will be poring over the meaning of all this when our soles/avatars are locked in a special focus AI world, because we all liked MI, so they put us all together. Can you imagine.....

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Just sharing the fact, not commenting on the legality.

That besides, now watching the clips, not sure wheter those are incendiary cluster munition actualy.

Sources talked about 9M28S or 9M22S.
These are clearly incendiary, but the "debate" was more surrounding the nature of the incendiary product. Some are saying WP, others are saying thermite. I have been able to find the nature of the incendiary component of the 9M28S, but the 9M22S is basically a mixture of gasoline, isopropyl nitrate, SKN-18, copper powder, PAM-4, MSFP-4, sodium nitrate, barium peroxide, silicon potassium, iditol and AR-3 coal. Who knows, maybe that could qualify as "thermite".

I have seen WP being dispersed by either artillery shells or rockets, but never thermites. Who knows.

But these are incendiary. Stuff like cluster air-burst have a clearer and more characteristic visual signature. You see them explode, but not fall:

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[Ivan le Fou]

Part of this, is so Ukr can be supplied with relatively unlimited amounts of 155mm ammo.

This war shows both sides losing kit at crazy rates, more notably the Russians. Armchair generals will be poring over the meaning of all this when our soles/avatars are locked in a special focus AI world, because we all liked MI, so they put us all together. Can you imagine.....

The "advanced firing system" (GPS powered iirc?) limits the gun to using a specific kind of ammo?

 

[Ivan le Fou]

About the last part, really mate, just the Ukrainians ? :v

Is that what I said?

 

[Fluff]

The "advanced firing system" (GPS powered iirc?) limits the gun to using a specific kind of ammo?

for smart rounds you need the guidance gizmo.

For dumb rounds you dont.

Just because so far they dont show it, maybe planned to let them get used to the kit first, and maybe the smart ammo also hasnt arrived. Need an arty guy, do they leave the guidance on the gun, all the time.

 

[thelistener]

for smart rounds you need the guidance gizmo.

For dumb rounds you dont.

I don't think you need the gizmo for example 155 BONUS rounds. Though i don't know if Ukraine has received those.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

I though the GPS firing system was just to give a better and more reliable firing solution.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

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Interesting detail: the serial numbers have been blurred.

 

[JimHPTN]

Technically the US answered the call for more guns sent by Ukraine by shipping them M777.

As I pointed out, without the firing system or guided munitions a M777 is more or less the same thing as a MSTA-B. Well, the M777 is 155mm and the MSTA-B 152mm, but I suppose the effect will be the same for whoever is on the receiving end.


It seems that, in the end, the Ukrainian army does spend its equipment pretty fast. Early on during the war some NATO official talked about Ukraine going through its stock of donated weapons at an alarming speed. Losses suffered by Ukraine are also relatively high, so maybe risking a "run of the hill" plain M777 is less of a dramatic loss than an upgraded one. The US are probably not to keen on seeing their stuff getting captured by Russia either.

In the end it is still a 155mm field artillery gun. Just like the T72 donated by Poland, though objectively useless as front line units, are still "armored mobile 125mm gun platforms". It's not much, but it is still something and better than nothing.
When/if the Pzh2000 ever get delivered to Ukraine now that will be more interesting.

The US should have sent older M198s if they weren't going to send all of the fancy toys with it. Surely the US still has some floating around in war reserve somewhere.

 

[Musashi]

The Russians keep up their WW2 tradition: there are three watches on a dead Russian soldier's wrist:

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[Musashi]

oTechnically the US answered the call for more guns sent by Ukraine by shipping them M777.

As I pointed out, without the firing system or guided munitions a M777 is more or less the same thing as a MSTA-B. Well, the M777 is 155mm and the MSTA-B 152mm, but I suppose the effect will be the same for whoever is on the receiving end.

It is not, as the M777 has a much bigger range.

Regarding the failed Russian river crossing, a Polish military journalist say it's very likely M777s with Excaliburs were used, as there are not too many shell holes outside the destroyed vehicles. It would require a fvckton of a dumb ammunition to destroy 70-80 vehicles and the damage in the whole area would be very extensive.

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It seems that, in the end, the Ukrainian army does spend its equipment pretty fast. Early on during the war some NATO official talked about Ukraine going through its stock of donated weapons at an alarming speed. Losses suffered by Ukraine are also relatively high, so maybe risking a "run of the hill" plain M777 is less of a dramatic loss than an upgraded one. The US are probably not to keen on seeing their stuff getting captured by Russia either.

The current M777s are capable of doing the job well enough. The outskirts of Belgorod are in M777s' range. So are the major railways used by the Russians in that area.
Regarding the takeover of Propasna by the Russians., it happened at the time when the Ukrainian 7th Tank Brigade was moved from Propasna to the north to deal with the attempted river crossing. Propasna was taken over by the Russians, but they lost an equivalent of 2.5 BTGs while attempting the river crossing.

In the end it is still a 155mm field artillery gun. Just like the T72 donated by Poland, though objectively useless as front line units, are still "armored mobile 125mm gun platforms".

They were pretty usleess at the end of the 80s, but the donated T-72s have good thermal devices and communication systems at least. They are at least as good as the thermal devices sold by France to Russia if not better.

KLW-1 ASTERIA thermal camera

KLW-1 ASTERIA thermal camera - PCO S.A. A company belonging to Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa and the largest Polish producer of optoelectronic products.

pcosa.com.pl

It's not much, but it is still something and better than nothing.
When/if the Pzh2000 ever get delivered to Ukraine now that will be more interesting.

Delivering PzH2000s is not a great idea, as the Ukrainians will not be able to maintain them well. If a chassis breaks down, the whole system becomes useless. Towed artillery is lighter and more serviceable.

Ukrainian Mi-24s over Donbas:

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[surfpunk]

So Kirby didn't send the firing system or the guided munitions? What was the point of it then.

yep the m777 didnt come with any of the things that would make it superior or more accurate.

 

[Musashi]

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[Musashi]

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Kaboom:

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[Mike1976]

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It's because of a disconnect within the logic.

Goals of western nations:
- Keep Putin in power*;
- Break down Russia's military and willingness to use it + prevent them from rebuilding including targeting dual-use industry**.

The problem is that they're almost certainly mutually exclusive, acting like Newton's third law. You can have one, but the other one is going to push back with equal force in response.




* Because no one knows what comes after him, perhaps even civil war and a collapse of central government control over nukes. Only idiot politicians dream of Russia becoming a liberal democracy over night under an ultra nationalist like Navalny and who wants to see the ol' commies make a return ...

** So they move out of Ukraine on their own initiative, because no consensus is possible between all of the non-warring nations of what would constitute a full withdrawal and what an acceptable compromise. Feb. 24 positions? Clearing Donbas entirely? Crimea? A voluntary withdrawal would solve a lot of political hot potatoes.

There hasn't been much talk any more recently of supporting Russian dissidents and other political activists within Russia or outside it. Might still be going on behind the scenes (like it should always have been), but the emphasis has shifted to publicly remaining silent about the legitimacy of Putin's regime. As I said if the Russians get rid of Putin there is no telling who you'll be talking to afterwards and what their views will be.

 

[pigmode]

yep the m777 didnt come with any of the things that would make it superior or more accurate.

It still has advantages without the bells and whistles--more accurate, more range, ammo manufactured at much higher tolerances. Comparison to old soviet crap is bordering on ludicrous.

 

[gafkiwi]

It still has advantages without the bells and whistles--more accurate, more range, ammo manufactured at much higher tolerances. Comparison to old soviet crap is bordering on ludicrous.

Not to mention trained and motivated crews along with effective fire control