Crime Russian opposition figure hospitalized

[berkut76]

Alexei Navalny: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok - Germany

Germany says Alexei Navalny was attacked with a type of nerve agent used against an ex-spy in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

my prediction earlier in this thread was correct then ..........

He is still alive, though. Maybe conditionally. Still in coma and who knows about permanent damage if he is going to be awaken from it. Perhaps, the fate worse than death. Why did Merkel took Navalny in instead letting France take the lead on this one. She is obviously interested in seeing Norther Stream 2 being completed, but Navalny affair only gives more ammo to her political opponents.

Unless, she doesn't care anymore. I was reading Russian media and pro-Kremlin political pundits are more concerned deteriorating Russian-German relations and the long last damage from Navalny affair than with the outcome of the US Presidential elections. Economic considerations are also in play as bilateral trade is shrinking along with German investments in Russian economy.

 

[Musashi]

He is still alive, though. Maybe conditionally. Still in coma and who knows about permanent damage if he is going to be awaken from it. Perhaps, the fate worse than death. Why did Merkel took Navalny in instead letting France take the lead on this one. She is obviously interested in seeing Norther Stream 2 being completed, but Navalny affair only gives more ammo to her political opponents.

Unless, she doesn't care anymore. I was reading Russian media and pro-Kremlin political pundits are more concerned deteriorating Russian-German relations and the long last damage from Navalny affair than with the outcome of the US Presidential elections. Economic considerations are also in play as bilateral trade is shrinking along with German investments in Russian economy.

You may have missed this:

Berlin seeks sanctions against Russian hackers over Bundestag cyberattack

EU ‘cyber sanctions’ on Russian national would be first of its kind.

www.politico.eu

 

[berkut76]

You may have missed this:

Berlin seeks sanctions against Russian hackers over Bundestag cyberattack

EU ‘cyber sanctions’ on Russian national would be first of its kind.

www.politico.eu

Yeah, this was mentioned almost as the side note, Navalny's affair is much more concerning to them.

 

[BCNTM]

He is still alive, though. Maybe conditionally. Still in coma and who knows about permanent damage if he is going to be awaken from it. Perhaps, the fate worse than death. Why did Merkel took Navalny in instead letting France take the lead on this one. She is obviously interested in seeing Norther Stream 2 being completed, but Navalny affair only gives more ammo to her political opponents.

Unless, she doesn't care anymore. I was reading Russian media and pro-Kremlin political pundits are more concerned deteriorating Russian-German relations and the long last damage from Navalny affair than with the outcome of the US Presidential elections. Economic considerations are also in play as bilateral trade is shrinking along with German investments in Russian economy.

all I can say is Putin must have a good set of taste testers - it would be karma if he went the same way

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Navalny is reported to have awaken from his coma.

 

[1645556315]

Seems that Novichok is the most ineffective checmical weapon ever existed.

What a farce show.

 

[Mike1976]

Seems that Novichok is the most ineffective checmical weapon ever existed.

What a farce show.

I quite agree. This stuff is supposed to be 8 times more effective than VX yet there have been a fair number of cases where the target has survived, a good majority of publicly known instances in fact. Could be a poorly made "home" cooking or old batch which rules out any government-sanctioned action. If they wanted those people dead they'd be dead now.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

The only thing I know about the Novichock I got it from wikipedia so... around less than 0 knowledge on the subject.

But it is nonetheless claimed that:

"The median lethal dose for inhaled A-234 has been estimated as 7 mg/m3 for two minute exposure (minute volume of 15 l, slight activity).[67] The median lethal dose for inhaled A-230, likely the most toxic liquid Novichok, has been estimated as between 1.9 and 3 mg/m3 for two minute exposure. Making the median lethal dose for inhaled A-234 0.2 mg (5000 lethal doses in a gram) and below 0.1 mg for A-230 (10 000 lethal doses in a gram)."

So, from what I understand, it is supposed be a pretty nasty and potent agent.

 

[BCNTM]

Seems that Novichok is the most ineffective checmical weapon ever existed.

What a farce show.

does not matter if it is efficient or inefficient it's the illegal use of it that is the issue on civilians

So Putin has now sanctioned the attack in Salisbury and the attack on Navalny

State player with a state toy trying to terrorise people - you are back to Stalin's days

 

[BCNTM]

I quite agree. This stuff is supposed to be 8 times more effective than VX yet there have been a fair number of cases where the target has survived, a good majority of publicly known instances in fact. Could be a poorly made "home" cooking or old batch which rules out any government-sanctioned action. If they wanted those people dead they'd be dead now.

they don't want them dead - they want them alive with long term health issues - its sickening that an idiot like Putin has got into power -Russia will never progress whilst he has the reins of power and keeps pulling stunts like this

 

[Mike1976]

they don't want them dead - they want them alive with long term health issues - its sickening that an idiot like Putin has got into power -Russia will never progress whilst he has the reins of power and keeps pulling stunts like this

The Skripal's aren't suffering from any long term health issues. Getting the doses just right to where they will incapacitate rather than kill is an illusion in real world operating conditions. This nerve agent when kept well is meant to kill, and a tiny amount is enough to achieve that goal already. If the subject hasn't been killed the agent was less effective than it's design parameters intended. This kind of stuff isn't meant to be used as glorified pepper spray.

 

[1645556315]

So Putin has now sanctioned the attack in Salisbury and the attack on Navalny
State player with a state toy trying to terrorise people - you are back to Stalin's days
they don't want them dead - they want them alive with long term health issues - its sickening that an idiot like Putin has got into power -Russia will never progress whilst he has the reins of power and keeps pulling stunts like this

Sorry, can't believe you are serious.

 

[BCNTM]

Sorry, can't believe you are serious.

okay - explain Salisbury and the two tourists

second lets have an alternative explanation for poisoning your most vocal opponent

and as a state you have a lot of previous 'form' with polonium etc. - or are you going to deny that as well

Putin will be president now for life and hopefully that's not for long

 

[nicememe]

1. This "Novichok" crap has been used 3 times in recent history, in Bulgarian, UK, and now allegedly inside Russia itself.
2. In all 3 cases the victim survived.
3. In all 3 cases the victim posed no threat to the Russian state nor to Putin. (those who genuinely believe that an arms dealer, an old, pardoned discharged spy, and a youtube celebrity that caters to teens for ad-revenue, are threats to Putin, y'all need your heads checked)
4. Putin and the Russian government, intelligence agencies, bureaucracy are well aware of the threat of international sanctions coming from the west, that will come at the slightest transgression. Ukraine flares up - Russia's fault, Belarus flares up - Russia's fault, someone dies somewhere in the world - let's look for ways to pin it on Russia.
5. Despite the entirety of the Russian state aware of the fact that they're walking on mines daily, they decide it would be a good idea to come up with, sanction, and carry out a failed poisoning of a Russian youtube celebrity, then spend hours trying to save his life, then with all parade and whistles send him to Germany for treatment, because they're itching to step on yet another mine.
6. They're intentionally stepping on mines and angering western countries, despite the fact that they struggle deeply to save multi-billion projects they have with western countries.
7. Everyone acknowledges this is idiotic, so the only solution to explain why this is happening in this specific interpretation of events is: "Well, Putin is an idiot, so it's expected he does incredibly stupid things."

 

[Picanha]

It repeats too often to not see the scheme behind it. In Germany for example the former GDR Party SED now called Die Linke instantly jumps to the rescue with the ever repeating "where is the proof". Yes where is the proof that green men in Ukraine where RF Forces, where is the proof that MH17 was shot down by separatists. Where is the proof that all those journalists opposition figures etc. where also hit by RF agencys?

A big plus for authocratic Regimes at the moment is that weak leaders like Merkel soften up every response. And that the Western population is divided and oftenly anti western (though they enjoy life here) and give such weak stances a base. Couple it with Business interests and non strategically thinking, in contrast to the autocratic Regimes pursuing it aggressively, and you have the answer.

Nobody can proove anything. It is really hard to even convict organised crime in a rule of law society despite everybody knowing whats going on.

So how can anything be proved regarding countries interna?

You can use the plausable denial only for so long. Or be like our leftists and ask "cui bono?" and then spin some weird theories.

The Russian TV even accused the German Intelligence Service of poisoning Navalny, or ridiculing him that it was on a diet.

There is no freedom in these countries so no way of getting into any sensible diologues and you just have to see it for what it is.

 

[morris]

Nobody can proove anything

They say they have a proof but they can't show it, so it is just a propaganda aimed to stop Nord Stream 2.

 

[Picanha]

Meanwhile three other independent laboratories confirmed it.
One in Sweden a non NATO Country. The OPCW also receives a probe to which the RF will have access to.

But that`s exactly what I meant you can not proove it without always saying it was a foreign agent in Russia, it was contaminated on purpose by Germany. It was criminals having a beef with Navalny. It was done to stop NS2.

But what remains is how it is all handled and reacted on. So what did Navalny have in Russia? After all it was said he wasn´t poisoned there.

 

[morris]

How independent independents really are and how different the blogger looks before and after alleged poisoning by deadliest of deadly military grade poison and 3 weeks in coma ?

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Meanwhile three other independent laboratories confirmed it.
One in Sweden a non NATO Country. The OPCW also receives a probe to which the RF will have access to.

But that`s exactly what I meant you can not proove it without always saying it was a foreign agent in Russia, it was contaminated on purpose by Germany. It was criminals having a beef with Navalny. It was done to stop NS2.

But what remains is how it is all handled and reacted on. So what did Navalny have in Russia? After all it was said he wasn´t poisoned there.

Sweden may not be a NATO country, but Sweden does not really like Russia.

 

[nicememe]

My assumption for how things really went would be as follows:
Scenario #1: He was indeed poisoned in Russia, but by someone other than the state, and the reason Russian medics failed to find traces of Novichok in his body, was because Russian medics kind of suck and are incompetent at their job. And the Russian state knowing something's fishy with Navalny's health condition, still didn't push for any deeper research into his condition, because they're just lazy and don't care all that much about potential findings or outcries on an international scale, so they just dumped the work of healing Navalny on Germany. (I find this scenario least likely, but at least it feels more logical than the official story. It's pure human negligence and incompetence on medical and state level.)
Scenario #2: He wasn't poisoned by Novichok in Russia and the reason for his condition was something else. That's why when they did tests in Russia they didn't find traces of anything potentially incriminating, and both the medics and the state were confident enough that they can safely send him for treatment abroad with little worries, as since they didn't find anything it's unlikely that someone else would. But during his transportation to Germany or during his hospitalization, someone got involved and planted the evidence. Because it's very politically convenient for quite a few players to cause another international scandal and cause further division between Russian and German interests. (I find this scenario more plausible, as it then fully explains Russia's conviction that Navalny's body was clean, and Germany's confidence that it in fact wasn't. And the likely reason why the sharing of samples between Russia and Germany is being blocked, is because there's a possibility that the samples Russian medics possess would conflict with the samples German medics got after the transfer.)