Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[Chazman]

Okay dude. Based on some random dingus on the streets that have been asked whether or not they were going to fight for their own country.

Do you also have a map for Biden’s USA in case shyte gets real? That could be interesting as well.

In short: I was expecting some facts making you come up with this claim, not some random worthless maps, but if that’s the only thing you can contribute then more power to you.

WIN and Gallop are major marketing and polling companies. You may have heard of them.

 

[Jake84]

WIN and Gallop are major marketing and polling companies. You may have heard of them.

Did they also predict that Hillary would win in a landslide back in Nov 2016? If that’s the case that’s more than I need to know.

 

[Chazman]

Did they also predict that Hillary would win in a landslide back in Nov 2016? If that’s the case that’s more than I need to know.

They did. But then Trump won thanks to RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! Or so we were told.......

The take away here is you'd think it would be 100%. 100% should say abso-freaking-lutely I would defend my country. Now, I admit that we probably have a different population cross section on this forum, that the typical man in the street. But when you have 80% of a population stating in a poll that they WILL NOT fight to defend their country, that's a bit of problem.

 

[Jake84]

They did.

The take away here is you'd think it would be 100%. 100% should say abso-freaking-lutely I would defend my country. Now, I admit that we probably have a different population cross section on this forum, that the typical man in the street. But when you have 80% of a population stating in a poll that they WILL NOT fight to defend their country, that's a bit of problem.

Yeah I’m being a bit argumentative because you have been too.

Though, wars are made of surprise and the first one a year ago was the fierce defense from Ukrainians… won’t rehash it again. It’s documented enough.

It’s true that we don’t have a European army to speak of, and Orban could be a PITA if things would go nasty further west of UKR, but we’re not there yet, hopefully won’t be in our lifetime.

I talked previously about a dead end regarding this conflict and unfortunately I’m afraid to be right about it. Not that I’m happy about it.

Ukraine wins and retaking lands last summer and early fall have been outstanding, when faced with such numerous troops, and now both sides are losing thousands more men a week for Bakhmut.

It’s only hypothetical I agree. Basically BOJO for instance when visiting UKR shortly before Putin unleashed the troops felt that they were going to fight. He couldn’t have been more right when the MSM on both side of the Atlantic Ocean were all about Kiev falling in three days to a week.

 

[Telmar]

They did. But then Trump won thanks to RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! Or so we were told.......

The take away here is you'd think it would be 100%. 100% should say abso-freaking-lutely I would defend my country. Now, I admit that we probably have a different population cross section on this forum, that the typical man in the street. But when you have 80% of a population stating in a poll that they WILL NOT fight to defend their country, that's a bit of problem.

Context plays a role.

Noone knows what that means after so many years of non conflict.

I believe that it is pointless to make such surveys or to make something out of them. I can project myself a war hero all I want but when the times come I might go into hiding or worse. And the opposite can be true as well. You cannot know until you are confronted to that danger, to the actions of the invader, to the values that invader challenges..

What we can say for sure is that Putin bought time from 2014 and took advantage of the lesser power footprint of the US and of the fading investments in war machines and men from European countries. If Europe cannot fight, it is mainly because of hardware, I would be more confident than these polls show.

 

[Fluff]

I'd be happy to.

Willingness to fight for one's own country and attitudes towards safety and war - Win Worldwide Independent Network of Market Research and Opinion Poll

WIN International, the world’s leading association in market research and polling has published a recent survey exploring the views and beliefs of 19,422 individuals among citizens from 24 countries across the globe about war and attitudes towards it. Self-perception and connection to the...

winmr.com

View attachment 424801
If we go off this poll, it looks like Germany would be the first to surrender, followed closely by Spain and Italy.

Sorry, but we have way more than 27% football fans, in the UK. I'd love to know who paid for this research, and what the exact question was, as results seem shall we say, a little scewed. LOL at Switzerland, where every male has an assault rifle.

 

[HorniePonie]

I'd be happy to.

Willingness to fight for one's own country and attitudes towards safety and war - Win Worldwide Independent Network of Market Research and Opinion Poll

WIN International, the world’s leading association in market research and polling has published a recent survey exploring the views and beliefs of 19,422 individuals among citizens from 24 countries across the globe about war and attitudes towards it. Self-perception and connection to the...

winmr.com

View attachment 424801
If we go off this poll, it looks like Germany would be the first to surrender, followed closely by Spain and Italy.

Yeah, we are pretty determined up here.

 

[Chazman]

Yeah I’m being a bit argumentative because you have been too.

Though, wars are made of surprise and the first one a year ago was the fierce defense from Ukrainians… won’t rehash it again. It’s documented enough.

It’s true that we don’t have a European army to speak of, and Orban could be a PITA if things would go nasty further west of UKR, but we’re not there yet, hopefully won’t be in our lifetime.

I talked previously about a dead end regarding this conflict and unfortunately I’m afraid to be right about it. Not that I’m happy about it.

Ukraine wins and retaking lands last summer and early fall have been outstanding, when faced with such numerous troops, and now both sides are losing thousands more men a week for Bakhmut.

It’s only hypothetical I agree. Basically BOJO for instance when visiting UKR shortly before Putin unleashed the troops felt that they were going to fight. He couldn’t have been more right when the MSM on both side of the Atlantic Ocean were all about Kiev falling in three days to a week.

No, you're fine. I consider us all friends here and would be happy to buy most of you a drink.

It's actually refreshing to have a bit of friction. We can't 100% agree on everything after 34,000 posts. LOL!

 

[Musashi]

That's a comedy of gold. First, the Russians laughed at Macron calling Putain too many times, but now they are unhappy with Macron not calling him at all:

Kremlin complains of Scholz and Macron not contacting Putin at all lately

Dmitry Peskov, press secretary of the Russian President, has stated that Vladimir Putin remains open to negotiations about Ukraine, but neither German Chancellor Olaf Scholz nor French President Emmanuel Macron, with whom the Kremlin wants to be in touch, are contacting Russia at the moment at all.

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[Musashi]

Let me just play Devil's Advocate for a minute. The Ukraine-Russia war is in Europe, right? Seems to me that it is primarily a European problem. Right? Whoever controls Donbas or Crimea does not affect US security interests in the least bit. If the Ukrainian people with European support want to take them back, well then God bless them. I wish them all the luck possible.

Are we honestly saying that Russia is preparing to attack NATO now? Really? After the Ukraine debacle? They'd have to dust off their T-55s and T-34s for that. NATO has kept the Soviet Empire at bay for 3/4 of a century. It's true, that during most of that time the member nations were actual active members, doing their part. That hasn't been the case in a long time. NATO and Europe are essentially protectorates of the US. Let's face that fact. If Europe wants a wider and more intense war, they should fund it and also send their sons and daughters to fight it.


As far as Zelensky's words being taken out of context or parsed incorrectly, what many Americans are hearing is exactly what I stated. Zelensky was trying to make a point, I agree. But after that soundbite, many Americans are thinking, F#ck You, that's enough with your bull$hit.

First of all, Europe, apart from the UK, has not signed the Budapest Memorandum:

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Let me tell you what would happen if the USA stopped supporting Ukraine.
After the fvckup in Afghanistan, and a potential fvckup in Ukraine, many countries would conclude that USA is a joke protector and they would turn to China. Before that, China would invade Taiwan and the USA would lose access to the most advanced microchips. As a result, the USA would lose power in favour of China and would be reduced to a regional power.

 

[Musashi]

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[Chazman]

First of all, Europe, apart from the UK, has not signed the Budapest Memorandum:

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Let me tell you what would happen if the USA stopped supporting Ukraine.
After the fvckup in Afghanistan, and a potential fvckup in Ukraine, many countries would conclude that USA is a joke protector and they would turn to China. Before that, China would invade Taiwan and the USA would lose access to the most advanced microchips. As a result, the USA would lose power in favour of China and would be reduced to a regional power.

Doubt it.

 

[shonima]

That's a comedy of gold. First, the Russians laughed at Macron calling Putain too many times, but now they are unhappy with Macron not calling him at all:

Kremlin complains of Scholz and Macron not contacting Putin at all lately

Dmitry Peskov, press secretary of the Russian President, has stated that Vladimir Putin remains open to negotiations about Ukraine, but neither German Chancellor Olaf Scholz nor French President Emmanuel Macron, with whom the Kremlin wants to be in touch, are contacting Russia at the moment at all.

www.pravda.com.ua

In ruZZia it’s very important to show that Kremlin and putler are VIP and they never initiate any call to anyone. It’s always “others” are calling to talk with putler. In ruZZian news you will always hear this sentence “the call was initiated by American/European/Chinese/Antarctic republic of Penguenia” but never by Kremlin. That’s how they show their citizens, how important their tzar führer is.

 

[Defcon 1 Caveman]

That's a comedy of gold. First, the Russians laughed at Macron calling Putain too many times, but now they are unhappy with Macron not calling him at all:

Kremlin complains of Scholz and Macron not contacting Putin at all lately

Dmitry Peskov, press secretary of the Russian President, has stated that Vladimir Putin remains open to negotiations about Ukraine, but neither German Chancellor Olaf Scholz nor French President Emmanuel Macron, with whom the Kremlin wants to be in touch, are contacting Russia at the moment at all.

www.pravda.com.ua

Just sounds like my ex-girlfriend.

Hell, compare Putin's Russia to my ex girlfriend is an insult to my ex. At least she doesn't intrude our neighbor's property, kills babies and destroy hospitals. Although she destroyed my laptop once.

 

[Defcon 1 Caveman]

Matt Gaetz awkwardly caught citing Chinese propaganda to justify Ukraine aid cuts

lol

 

[Chazman]

Kind of interesting thread....

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[muck]

I'd be happy to.

Willingness to fight for one's own country and attitudes towards safety and war - Win Worldwide Independent Network of Market Research and Opinion Poll

WIN International, the world’s leading association in market research and polling has published a recent survey exploring the views and beliefs of 19,422 individuals among citizens from 24 countries across the globe about war and attitudes towards it. Self-perception and connection to the...

winmr.com

View attachment 424801
If we go off this poll, it looks like Germany would be the first to surrender, followed closely by Spain and Italy.

The Dutch responded least favourably there, according to your map, but whatever. There's another poll like this that produced a different result with a simple rephrasing of the question, though. And that rephrasing was: Would you defend your country? See, many modern Europeans are not as willing as you guys are to project military power abroad. The Iraq War, for instance, had no popular backing in all but two of the European countries contributing troops. So, would I be willing to "defend my country"? Absolutely. Would I be willing "to fight for my country", not knowing if that entails being sent to a place like Iraq or Afghanistan? Absolutely not. The devil is in the detail.

 

[Chazman]

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[Marjanpapou]

First, as of now Russia controls more than Donbass and Crimea. That's the issue. I can see Ukraine going for a status quo ante bellum.
But to accept the annexation of Melitopol etc. is another.
Second, what i wrote to Surfpunk today applies to this as well:
Well i know one thing. If Russia "wins" and it happens that we aren't in NATO yet. I will be worried.
It does not matter at all if they manage only to capture, say 20 km of southern Finland or some major island with 100k casualties or whatever. That's still hundreds of thousands displaced, economy grinding to halt etc. etc. And possibly the NATO process all together.

In the baltics it could be a test of NATO resolve. Will the next US president (Trump) send in NATO troops (or Spain or Germany) to fight Russians if they capture ONLY the Suwalki gap. Is the suwalki gap worth in- Trumps and US right wings eyes- worth potential nuclear war. Or would they turn to appeasement?
If your answer to me is: Europe should handle and respond first and US second. Well that's exactly why Russia needs to lose so we don't have to face these questions in reality in the next 5 years.


2-5 years ago i didn't think today's situation was plausible. I can't see into the future 2-5 years ahead from now, but it seems to me that one should try to eliminate uncertainties.


Maybe it's bad policy to reinforce pre-existing biases/opinions based on soundbites?
Some member here wrote to somebody earlier; read Churchill's letters to Roosevelt and compare to them to Zelensky's calls for support.
I'd imagine if they had social media back then and those were public, i imagine people making the arguments same as now:
"Why did you appease hitler in 1938?; you reap what you sow. not our national security issue if hitler controls northern- France." etc.

I don't think USA has a luxury of saying no to defending even Suwalki gap. China would look at their response very closely and if they would not defend member of NATO, Taiwan might be next - and USA knows that.

Also as was said in the previous post - if USA will not defend allies a lot of countries might migrate to another power for alliance and protection.

 

[Hiryu2.0]

Kherson torture centres were planned by Russian state, say lawyers

Investigators say sites set up during occupation of Ukrainian city were part of ‘calculated plan to terrorise’ locals

www.theguardian.com