Politics Black Sea Thread

[morris]

So, the UK and Russia are certainly not going to war over Crimea.

Nobody does so Crimea stays Russian.

 

[nicememe]

Non-existent.
Btw

Great deflection.
First: suppression this suppression that. Great story bro, needs more dragons. Also, have you ever been to Crimea yourself? I visited it twice prior to 2014. Haven't heard Ukrainian speech there. Sorry.

As for police/politics/economy. What do you mean by "non-existent"? Is it still under the control of Ukrainian police/politics/economy?

Your tryharding needs to stop. Have some shame.

Let's try this. Give me a list of 10 things that are inherently "Ukrainian" in Crimea or about Crimea in 2021.
I gave you my list, so it's your turn.
Inb4 "But the international community says..."
top kek

 

[muck]

Reading all the argumentation above I found it wanting

That's a strange thing to say without providing counter-arguments after having your arguments proven false. It should be easy for you to elaborate your claims.

For instance, where did Ukraine break a treaty with Russia to justify breaking Russia's binding acknowledging of Ukraine's territorial integrity?

And since Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum, why does she not return the nuclear weapons Ukraine handed over to Russia in exchange for Russia's acknowledging of the Ukrainian borders ?

[…] and can say without wasting too many words on sophistry […]

Sophistry like that one time when you declared Crimea to be Russian because the Communist Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic had ceded Crimea to Ukraine, and since the Communists are the baddies, you don't think the Russian Federation as its legal successor needs to stay true to its word, ignoring that the decisively non-Communist Russian Federation in 1994 explicitely acknowledged Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

[…] without fear of contradiction:

You've contradicted yourself many a time in this thread.

Crimea is Russian and is staying so because that is the wish of Crimean people. Call me if this change.

You mean a referendum in which, according to the Russian government, only 15% of the Crimeans voted in favour of annexation? A vote organised after the completion of the annexation, I might add? Crimea is under Russian control by force, and nothing else.

That's not to say that a peaceful separation of Crimea from Ukraine should've off the table till the end of time, but that's a story for another day. On a related note, I'd really love to know why right-wing Westerners think they need to side with the Russian government on this case.

As for police/politics/economy. What do you mean by "non-existent"? Is it still under the control of Ukrainian police/politics/economy?

Your tryharding needs to stop. Have some shame.

Let's try this. Give me a list of 10 things that are inherently "Ukrainian" in Crimea or about Crimea in 2021.
I gave you my list, so it's your turn.
Inb4 "But the international community says..."
top kek

By your logic, many constitutent subjects of the Russian Federation shouldn't belong to Russia, since their people are distinctively non-Russian in culture, religion, language and many other aspects of their identity.

By that same logic, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland shouldn't be a part of the United Kingdom (particularly if their inhabitants still speak their native tongue), Spain needs to be broken up, Schleswig must be ceded to Denmark, Carinthia to Slovenia … et cetera, et cetera.

 

[nicememe]

By your logic, many constitutent subjects of the Russian Federation shouldn't belong to Russia, since their people are distinctively non-Russian in culture, religion, language and many other aspects of their identity.

By that same logic, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland shouldn't be a part of the United Kingdom (particularly if their inhabitants still speak their native tongue), Spain needs to be broken up, Schleswig must be ceded to Denmark, Carinthia to Slovenia … et cetera, et cetera.

By that logic you clearly don't understand the difference between Russian and Russki.
What Wales, Scotland and England decide to do about their union is none of my business. Probably none of your business either, just as Crimea is none of your business.

But we're not here to play word games. We're hear to speak facts. Facts say Crimea is Russian 100-fold more than it could ever be "Ukrainian". I can't look at the sun and say that it orbits earth. I just can't, because it doesn't. It's good to make clear distinctions between wishful alternative realities and actual reality.

 

[nicememe]

For instance, where did Ukraine break a treaty with Russia to justify breaking Russia's binding acknowledging of Ukraine's territorial integrity?

Neither you nor I are experts on international law, but I would suppose Ukraine's initiative (signaled and/or enacted) to destroy all forms of political and economic ties, coupled with "Kto ne prigaet tot Moskal" is enough of an intentional and targeted injury against Russia for Russia to respond with whatever means it can and sees fit.

Just in case you may have had the wrong idea, I will gladly assure you that International Relations aren't a game of checkers, where we exchange equal pieces that stand on equal footing, and spend an equal amount of time doing so. It's chess to say the least, and 3d chess maybe comes closer.

And since Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum

You speak as though international treaties/agreements/laws aren't merely suggestive road signs, but actual rules everyone is required to follow and is punished for violating. They indeed are such rules, but only when applied to specific countries. For other countries they merely remain as suggestive road signs, and nobody punishes them for violating the rules.
There was no fair play in Ukraine, everyone was playing dirty, including Nuland and EU's double-thinkers and double-talkers who eventually ended up double-crossing Yanukovich. Going back to the game of chess mentioned earlier, one cannot follow the rules, if one's opponent never cared for rules to begin with.

And since Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum, why does she not return the nuclear weapons Ukraine handed over to Russia in exchange for Russia's acknowledging of the Ukrainian borders ?

Sure, let's give nukes to a schizophrenic country that already had multiple revolutions throughout the past 3 decades.
You pretend as though the departure of nukes from Ukraine was solely Russia's desire and initiative. But realistically, none of the P5 members wanted Ukraine to have nukes. It was only natural for the nukes to be transferred to Russia as the official legal inheritor of the UNSC and P5 chair.

Sophistry like that one time when you declared Crimea to be Russian because the Communist Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic had ceded Crimea to Ukraine, and since the Communists are the baddies, you don't think the Russian Federation as its legal successor needs to stay true to its word, ignoring that the decisively non-Communist Russian Federation in 1994 explicitely acknowledged Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

Bad choices lead to bad consequences. First of all, nobody considers anything Russia did in the 90s to have been anywhere near "far-sighted" or "smart". Secondly, laws and agreements are written on paper, but the livelihoods of human societies are written in blood. That's why there is a clear distinction between legality and legitimacy. For as long as any formal agreement is in its own nature broken, or no longer fits a rapidly changing environment, it either has to be overturned, overwritten, or removed in favor of a legitimate decision and course of actions that represent the needs of human beings. Humans were not created to benefit laws, laws were created to benefit humans. And for as long as Russia's perspective is concerned, Ukraine's ownership of Crimea in the context of the 2014 chaos breached legitimacy, no matter how many Budapest Memorandums or paper-ish Russo-Ukrainian treaties or promises you will try to hide behind.

R2P exists, right to self-determination exists, and so does exist every state's responsibility to act rationally and tread carefully. Incidentally, all these 3 things magically don't apply to Ukraine in your world, which is just the copy/pasta of the world you read about in western press, which in turn is a copy/pasta of the world narrated by western politicians.

Now let's do a school test:

Considering that: Ukraine and Ukrainian nationalists are pissed about Crimea's departure.
Considering that: Ukraine is on all layers of society hostile towards Russia and Russians due to what transpired in 2014 and beyond.
Considering that: Ukraine lives in a perpetual state of financial and political crises, and doesn't have the resources to re-integrate Crimea's economy, citizens, police, legislation, infrastructure back into Ukraine's national framework.
Considering that: The citizens of Crimea would be highly unhappy about the prospects of going back into the embrace of a state that has proven once and once again to be unstable.

Would you genuinely think that Russia handing Crimea back to Ukraine would be a legitimate decision, that comes from a desire to protect and/or improve the lives of Crimeans? The question is rhetorical. Don't worry answering.
To be frank, citizens of Crimea don't give a flying S**t about Budapest. And neither would you, if you were one of those Crimea citizens.
Even UK's Ministry of Defense that enjoys flying LGBT flags on its twitter account, knows that returning Crimea to Ukraine would end badly for everyone in Crimea and for everyone in Ukraine. But UK's goal isn't to return anything to anyone. UK's goal is to throw jabs at things Russia is sensitive about, so to partake in the bigger rivalry that is and has been unfolding between NATO and Russia across multiple continents.

A vote organised after the completion of the annexation, I might add? Crimea is under Russian control by force, and nothing else.

Give me one good reason why Crimeans, who overwhelmingly voted for pro-Russian parties and candidates for many years, who overwhelmingly speak Russian, who have very little historical relevance to Ukraine, and who have overwhelmingly told your own journalists they want to be with Russia, would somehow magically prefer Ukraine?
Again, rhetorical question. There is no reason. And you know it.

 

[BCNTM]

Going to be a big power vacuum once Putin kicks the bucket - come the revolution?

 

[Chazman]

Going to be a big power vacuum once Putin kicks the bucket - come the revolution?

A very interesting point.

 

[grassyknollgunner]

Keep on dreaming.

 

[Fluff]

Keep on dreaming.

What, he’s immortal???
Good luck with the next revolution, comrade....

 

[grassyknollgunner]

What, he’s immortal???
Good luck with the next revolution, comrade....

He is ten years younger than Biden. By the time he ascends to Heaven, you will be treating your own dementia, boss. Wars, revolutions, world politics as a whole wont bother you any longer...

 

[Fluff]

He is ten years younger than Biden. By the time he ascends to Heaven, you will be treating your own dementia, boss. Wars, revolutions, world politics as a whole wont bother you any longer...

And Biden is 20 years younger than Lizzie, doesn’t mean he’s in line to be her toy boy.......

being slightly better than the competition is not always a good advert....

FYI, the world is much, much bigger than Russia, you should get out more.

as USA makes clear, Russia is a backwater, better if Russia lets the Titans clash, and maybe some scraps come your way.

 

[morris]

I thought British emirate has sharia laws already ?

 

[grassyknollgunner]

That's a strange thing to say without providing counter-arguments after having your arguments proven false. It should be easy for you to elaborate your claims.

For instance, where did Ukraine break a treaty with Russia to justify breaking Russia's binding acknowledging of Ukraine's territorial integrity?

And since Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum, why does she not return the nuclear weapons Ukraine handed over to Russia in exchange for Russia's acknowledging of the Ukrainian borders ?

Sophistry like that one time when you declared Crimea to be Russian because the Communist Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic had ceded Crimea to Ukraine, and since the Communists are the baddies, you don't think the Russian Federation as its legal successor needs to stay true to its word, ignoring that the decisively non-Communist Russian Federation in 1994 explicitely acknowledged Crimea as a part of Ukraine?
You've contradicted yourself many a time in this thread.
You mean a referendum in which, according to the Russian government, only 15% of the Crimeans voted in favour of annexation? A vote organised after the completion of the annexation, I might add? Crimea is under Russian control by force, and nothing else.

That's not to say that a peaceful separation of Crimea from Ukraine should've off the table till the end of time, but that's a story for another day. On a related note, I'd really love to know why right-wing Westerners think they need to side with the Russian government on this case.By your logic, many constitutent subjects of the Russian Federation shouldn't belong to Russia, since their people are distinctively non-Russian in culture, religion, language and many other aspects of their identity

In short:

On 21st September 1993, President Yeltsin issued Decree 1400 and declared the Russian Parliament dissolved. The next day, the Russian Constitutional Court held that Yeltsin had violated the Constitution and could be impeached. Shortly after that Yeltsin was dismissed from his Office by the Act issued by Russian Parliament. Later, the conflict escalated into armed confrontation, which resulted in Yeltsin de-facto retaining his power. (See 1993 Russian constitutional crisis)
In other words from September 1993 when he was impeached by Russian Parliament till August 1996 when he was reelected Yeltsin de-jure remained usurper. Thus all international agreements signed by his Administration have no legal force. Including the Budapest Memorandum from 1994.

Does it make sense? ?

 

[grassyknollgunner]

And Biden is 20 years younger than Lizzie, doesn’t mean he’s in line to be her toy boy.......

being slightly better than the competition is not always a good advert....

The point is its too early for Putin to think about retirement...

FYI, the world is much, much bigger than Russia, you should get out more.

Whos talking? I wonder when did you last time leave your desolate island?

as USA makes clear, Russia is a backwater, better if Russia lets the Titans clash, and maybe some scraps come your way.

First of all noone cares what Americans think or say. Russians will remain independent and will protect their interests worldwide. As they did for the last 20 years actually. US can't do anything about it. Its even more obvious today when the confrontation between US and China is entering open phase which means that from now on Americans will spend most of their resources trying to constrain China. Makes life much easier for Russians.

 

[grassyknollgunner]

But in general I stand for Peace, Freedom and Justice... ?

Globally... ?

 

[nemipuka_]

"Protecting Russians" abroad from the countries they live in, is now official doctrine of Moscow.

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But the same problems remain - it can be implemented only on the weak.
Also, it's really touching to see how Russian officials are expressing concern for the families of British serviceman, instead for their own sailors who are trying to force NATO to go in line with unrecognized and illegal "borders".

 

[grassyknollgunner]

I think its time to protect Russians in Cuba. Russians in Syria and CAR feel save now...

 

[Fluff]

I think its time to protect Russians in Cuba. Russians in Syria and CAR feel save now.

Cuba = Ukraine

Dont play games in USA backyard, look what happened last time.

 

[grassyknollgunner]

Cuba = Ukraine

Dont play games in USA backyard, look what happened last time.

FYI Russian warships visit Cuba on a regular basis.

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[BCNTM]

Keep on dreaming.

From your username on here, you should be aware that he is only one shot away from infamy

Shot yourself in the foot a bit there..............??