Politics The future of European defence strategy & manufacturing

[thelistener]

We can all hate on Trump, but he managed to move European defense forward in two months more than the last decades of civil discussions and meetings.

Assuming that the promises of increased spending and manpower materialize.

Yes. Obviously we shall know was this shift, a net benefit for us or not, in a decade or more. But i'm beyond happy that the likes of Germany started to step up in 2022, and shifted to second gear after Trump.

I just read some finnish leftist and green policy papers from a decade ago about defense spending ideas and got the shivers. We as well, might have gotten royally F***ed by our "well-meaning liberal friends" as one former US president once said.

Now this doesn't mean i understand/grasp for example @Chazman praise and kiddy for Trump given the threats to allies in respects to Canada or Greenland. But thats why frequent this forum to get their perspective. But on this one, Europe needs to and has to "Look in the mirror" as our former president once said.

It's a good thread, lets not focus on the US on this one, unless it has to do with arms deals or some such.

 

[Chazman]

Now this doesn't mean i understand/grasp for example @Chazman praise and kiddy for Trump given the threats to allies in respects to Canada or Greenland. But thats why frequent this forum to get their perspective.

Honestly, I don't understand the Canada 51st State stuff either. Trust me, we DO NOT want Canada for a variety of reasons, especially as 51st State. Canada can't win a trade war, either. I expect things will settle down after Canadian elections.

As far as Greenland goes, both Russia and China are eyeing it, especially Russia. ESPECIALLY Russia. Denmark has no way to properly defend it. Although they did send two military dog teams this week. I don't know what will happen with Greenland, but I don't think Trump will allow China or Russia to control it.

 

[primer]

Trade California.

 

[LimaCharles]

Honestly, I don't understand the Canada 51st State stuff either. Trust me, we DO NOT want Canada for a variety of reasons, especially as 51st State. Canada can't win a trade war, either. I expect things will settle down after Canadian elections.

As far as Greenland goes, both Russia and China are eyeing it, especially Russia. ESPECIALLY Russia. Denmark has no way to properly defend it. Although they did send two military dog teams this week. I don't know what will happen with Greenland, but I don't think Trump will allow China or Russia to control it.

Agreed. After a Canuck living here had explained it to me, nope, no fricking way would we want even more California's and New York's types to make socialism here a reality.

 

[Picanha]

I live in Germany if that matters but yes you are right let's remain civil I will leave out my cynical comments.

 

[LimaCharles]

So what is the end goal here for this group think discussion? Better self sufficient defense infrastructure? Force projection? Show of force? All three?

What does each nation bring to the table as far as the above? What are you seeing as lacking in? How will you solve this problem or problems where you are lacking? Where do you want to be five years from now with all of this? And what ARE you doing to be a part of this solution? Just talking is all it really is, talking. Running for offices starting small and working your way up, is how this starts to take form, otherwise you're all whistling to be heard while facing the wind.

If the end goal to stick a finger to the USA, then you're doing it and thinking things wrong. You should be doing it for yourselves and seeing each allied nation as a force multiplier; a team of teams wanting to win.

By the way and as a form of an exmaple, another US company was chosen to be given a contract to outfit the Royal Marines in the UK with rifles. Just a suggestion towards this example being made and observed from, but a relaxation of each nation's gun laws gives your own industry the growth it would need to have actual beta testers with the public, in other words, spin offs. Naval, space, and air industries all have either spun to or was "spinned" off from both the public and a mil that wasn't castrated in being able to field better things to the table. This is HOW you get a stronger self sufficient by it local standard going with a strong industrial base that isn't being seen as a threat or hamstringed by politicians scared of of an inanimate and more scared to admit it's a people problem than anything else.

 

[thelistener]

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[thelistener]

So what is the end goal here for this group think discussion? Better self sufficient defense infrastructure? Force projection? Show of force? All three?

What does each nation bring to the table as far as the above?

As per EU and Germany comments, the defense infrastructure needs to updated so western european nations can shift forces east with ease. And that also of course requires the proper logistical troops to have force projection. oversimplified it doesn't matter if Germany has 2 or 5 more brigades in 5 years if Germany doesn't have the ability to send them as entire units to Estonia, Finland or Poland.

What are you seeing as lacking in? How will you solve this problem or problems where you are lacking?

So many things that not worth listing here, but multiple nations have started the acquisition of those capabilities. Like italy with AEW and AISREW capable aircraft orders.

Italy enlarges and enforces its fleet of special mission aircraft - EDR Magazine

Italy is pursuing its plan to expand its fleet of special mission aircraft (SMAs) assigned to the Air Force.

www.edrmagazine.eu

Where do you want to be five years from now with all of this?

As in the 1930, when everybody wants arms equipment, it's not so easy to get that even with money. Money only brings you ahead of the production queue if anything. of course expanding production facilities is a solution and that's happening.
But overall, what i want to see, is larger militaries in terms of manpower and the capability to deploy them.

By the way and as a form of an exmaple, another US company was chosen to be given a contract to outfit the Royal Marines in the UK with rifles. Just a suggestion towards this example being made and observed from, but a relaxation of each nation's gun laws gives your own industry the growth it would need to have actual beta testers with the public, in other words, spin offs. Naval, space, and air industries all have either spun to or was "spinned" off from both the public and a mil that wasn't castrated in being able to field better things to the table. This is HOW you get a stronger self sufficient by it local standard going with a strong industrial base that isn't being seen as a threat or hamstringed by politicians scared of of an inanimate and more scared to admit it's a people problem than anything else.

I don't think lax gun laws is necessarily the key (as per your example) my nation gave a volunteer reservist org a new rifle recently to field that might be modified slightly if found good, and then issued to the regular armed forces. (as per my understanding)
On that general subject, arms and defense portion % increase of GDP is important. But in the long run an increase of defense spending % of GDP doesn't do anything good if the overall GDP goes down. Thus its vital that European nations can at a minimum maintain and hopefully increase its overall GDP, which brings more money to defense even without increasing the defense % expenditure constantly.

On a side note, Europeans are very pessimistic by nature it seems, but i find it incredible that this "open air museum" has the capability to launch its own satellites thanks to French Guiana like the French just did recently.
And soon from Norway. This saturday if weather permits, a european private company will launch a test rocket from Norway's Andøya space center.

Iceye satellites that Ukraine uses as well for intelligence gather is a finnish company that started as a university project. Iceye is now the world's largest SAR constellation.

 

[LimaCharles]

As per EU and Germany comments, the defense infrastructure needs to updated so western european nations can shift forces east with ease. And that also of course requires the proper logistical troops to have force projection. oversimplified it doesn't matter if Germany has 2 or 5 more brigades in 5 years if Germany doesn't have the ability to send them as entire units to Estonia, Finland or Poland.


So many things that not worth listing here, but multiple nations have started the acquisition of those capabilities. Like italy with AEW and AISREW capable aircraft orders.

Italy enlarges and enforces its fleet of special mission aircraft - EDR Magazine

Italy is pursuing its plan to expand its fleet of special mission aircraft (SMAs) assigned to the Air Force.

www.edrmagazine.eu

As in the 1930, when everybody wants arms equipment, it's not so easy to get that even with money. Money only brings you ahead of the production queue if anything. of course expanding production facilities is a solution and that's happening.
But overall, what i want to see, is larger militaries in terms of manpower and the capability to deploy them.


I don't think lax gun laws is necessarily the key (as per your example) my nation gave a volunteer reservist org a new rifle recently to field that might be modified slightly if found good, and then issued to the regular armed forces. (as per my understanding)
On that general subject, arms and defense portion % increase of GDP is important. But in the long run an increase of defense spending % of GDP doesn't do anything good if the overall GDP goes down. Thus its vital that European nations can at a minimum maintain and hopefully increase its overall GDP, which brings more money to defense even without increasing the defense % expenditure constantly.

On a side note, Europeans are very pessimistic by nature it seems, but i find it incredible that this "open air museum" has the capability to launch its own satellites thanks to French Guiana like the French just did recently.
And soon from Norway. This saturday if weather permits, a european private company will launch a test rocket from Norway's Andøya space center.

Iceye satellites that Ukraine uses as well for intelligence gather is a finnish company that started as a university project. Iceye is now the world's largest SAR constellation.

So nothing then, nothing.

I heard excuses, not real answers. This is a vent thread nothing more of what I had originally suspected with some USA derangements and the usual Dunning Kruger Effect sprinkles. Thankfully the USA hate was toned down.

By the way, don't fall for appeals to any mil authority or any fallacy for this matter. It wasn't until after the service that I became a better riflemen. It was then that I learned that our mil failed it's servicemen. Some were already well aware of that and started to implement off the shelf purchases with RFI that would shape the way we progressed even further. You can't get that without a strong civilian base of riflemen and other shooters adding to the development. Those free floats on your newest service rifle? Yep, that standard came from not the mil. Ambidextrous? Yep, not mil that started it. Magpul furniture, US beta testers of civilian purchasers.

You wouldn't have what you have now if it wasn't a for a strong civilian gun ownership laws in another country that some just love to disparage on a daily basis.

 

[thelistener]

So nothing then, nothing.

I heard excuses, not real answers. This is a vent thread nothing more

Did you want answers what each european country is doing or what individual members are doing?

I for one would like to see this thread compile recent policy changes regarding defense and news about the future of defense manufacturing etc., along with discussion on those topics.
I don't see how its venting about the US when for example @Mike1976 posts about challenges accruing new military training grounds due to environmental regulations.

By the way, don't fall for appeals to any mil authority or any fallacy for this matter. It wasn't until after the service that I became a better riflemen. It was then that I learned that our mil failed it's servicemen. Some were already well aware of that and started to implement off the shelf purchases with RFI that would shape the way we progressed even further. You can't get that without a strong civilian base of riflemen and other shooters adding to the development. Those free floats on your newest service rifle? Yep, that standard came from not the mil. Ambidextrous? Yep, not mil that started it. Magpul furniture, US beta testers of civilian purchasers.

You wouldn't have what you have now if it wasn't a for a strong civilian gun ownership laws in another country that some just love to disparage on a daily basis.

Very cool, but maybe im the wrong person to comment on this. Because given the statics of inflicted casualties the actual service rifle model matters little. I'm just glad our military hasn't wasted money on upgrading it until now. And even that is still open to question.

 

[LimaCharles]

Very cool, but maybe im the wrong person to comment on this. Because given the statics of inflicted casualties the actual service rifle model matters little. I'm just glad our military hasn't wasted money on upgrading it until now. And even that is still open to question.

You're a big supporter of Ukraine, right? I'd give my own experiences but you seem rather not interested in real hard learned wisdom so we'll knowledge transfer a different way here....Tons of videos out there of straight up rifle fights at close quarters in Ukraine. Already seeing offsets being used to get lower and being able to take out advancing troops trying to retake a trench. Saw videos of trenches stormed and lights used to PID danger areas. Saw lasers to ID or engage with as the active aiming at threats. No matter how small it is, why on earth would you want to keep it as cheap as possible and not want every edge over anybody? Utter ignorance or even willful spite. Your reliance on statistics that were written in by someone not there for 1sthand on the job knowledge, is rife with the laws of averages fallacy, is a pristine example of falling for an appeals to someone's "authority" on something you are allowing yourself to be blinded by.

Offsets came about because of competition shooters that were offshoots for another and even better use: Using maximum cover without being exposed as little as possible. Neat huh? You won't get this tech use to exploit without a strong civilian ownership laws.

A combination of it all adds up for the big W. And that W is short for? WINNING.

 

[thelistener]

You're a big supporter of Ukraine, right? I'd give my own experiences but you seem rather not interested in real hard learned wisdom so we'll knowledge transfer a different way here....Tons of videos out there of straight up rifle fights at close quarters in Ukraine. Already seeing offsets being used to get lower and being able to take out advancing troops trying to retake a trench. Saw videos of trenches stormed and lights used to PID danger areas. Saw lasers to ID or engage with as the active aiming at threats. No matter how small it is, why on earth would you want to keep it as cheap as possible and not want every edge over anybody? Utter ignorance or even willful spite. Your reliance on statistics that were written in by someone not there for 1sthand on the job knowledge, is rife with the laws of averages fallacy, is a pristine example of falling for an appeals to someone's "authority" on something you are allowing yourself to be blinded by.

Offsets came about because of competition shooters that were offshoots for another and even better use: Using maximum cover without being exposed as little as possible. Neat huh? You won't get this tech use to exploit without a strong civilian ownership laws.

A combination of it all adds up for the big W. And that W is short for? WINNING.

It's simply question of money/resource allocation in my opinion. There's a limited amount what can be invested in a year into military equipment, and just recently the focus was on the navy's new ships and air forces F35 program. Thus i believe it was the right call to invest into to new artillery, anti-air and anti-tank systems etc. In a time period where the ground forces were not the focus of larger investments. And some of the troops just recently got an upgrade to the existing old service rifle anyway.

Army designated marksman role got a new service rifle recently (Sako M23 7.62). But until the more acute purchases are done, im happy/glad that the new service rifle isn't on the top of the acquisition list. Sweden recently adopted the Sako m23 5.56 as their service rifle, well let them sort out the bugs before we adopt it (apparently) might also be question of production capacity.

In summary: I hear you, but in my mind the acquisition of long range anti-air comes before a new service rifle, as they have done. I might be wrong and MOD might be wrong.

 

[Mike1976]

Defence wants to acquire new and sustainable real estate faster and cheaper. The Central Government Real Estate Agency has therefore started the tender for standard army buildings from the factory.

The Dutch defence organisation is growing on all sides. Not only in terms of equipment and striking power, but there is also a need for more people. In order to facilitate this properly, accommodation for employees is an important spearhead for the organisation. A ready-made building from the factory is considered a solution. These are permanent buildings that only need to be assembled on site.

There will be 2 types of buildings: 1-person and 8-person lodgings. This is according to Brigadier General Ard Goedhart, Director of the Real Estate Directorate at Defence. “In the first phase, 1,588 1-person lodgings and 47 eight-person lodgings will be delivered. Divided over 10 defence locations, we are talking about 1,964 beds, of which the first 2 buildings must be delivered in 2026.”

At a later stage, the intention is also for offices, warehouses and workshops to roll off the production line in a standardised manner.

Aanbesteding voor kant-en-klare legering uit de fabriek van start

Defensie wil sneller en goedkoper nieuw en duurzaam vastgoed verkrijgen. Het Rijksvastgoedbedrijf is daarom gestart met de aanbesteding voor standaard legeringsgebouwen uit de fabriek. Dat staat in de vandaag verschenen Defensiekrant.

www.defensie.nl

 

[Ivan le Fou]

View attachment 523375

Aanbesteding voor kant-en-klare legering uit de fabriek van start

Defensie wil sneller en goedkoper nieuw en duurzaam vastgoed verkrijgen. Het Rijksvastgoedbedrijf is daarom gestart met de aanbesteding voor standaard legeringsgebouwen uit de fabriek. Dat staat in de vandaag verschenen Defensiekrant.

www.defensie.nl

I suppose there is something to learn from the Chinese and how fast they built their emergency hospital when COVID broke out.

If a complex health facility can be built in record time with containers and pre-built elements, surely a military housing structure can be done just as fast if not faster.

 

[primer]

Next week at the local Ikea - prefab barracks.

WITH NATO membership feeling like a formality, Sweden are already reaping the benefits of joining the organisation as home furnishing heroes IKEA have bagged a lucrative defence contract, WWN can reveal.


“Teething issues are to be expected we’ve never done flat pack surface to air missiles or an iron dome before,” confirmed head of design at IKEA Josefine Kullberg, unveiling the allen key assembled wooden prototype Bikbööm.

 

[Chazman]

I also hope that Europe can form a strong enough Navy to defend it's own sea lanes.

Since the UK, France and Italy already have aircraft carriers, I propose that the EU contribute, (yes even to the UK), to maintain, fit out and operate these very expensive to maintain carriers. Whoever can't contribute a carrier, must supply Destroyers, Frigates as escorts and support ships. The UK needs escorts and more F-35Bs.

Assuming 6 European carrier groups, if France builds a second carrier, 2 on active, 2 training, 2 maintenance or the ability to surge 3 or 4. That's 2 UK, 2 Italian, hopefully 2 French. All nations must be able to interoperate. For example, a German Frigate should be able to replace a French Frigate on short notice.

AOs would include the Med, Red Sea and Persian Gulf.

 

[primer]

Why are the Houthis attacking the ships? The latest Isreali offensive which is your ally.

 

[Chazman]

Why are the Houthis attacking the ships? The latest Isreali offensive which is your ally.

AFAIK, they aren't attacking anyone right now. More like hiding in tunnels hoping a 1,000 pound JDAM doesn't fall on their head.

 

[primer]

Endless war.

 

[Mike1976]

Why are the Houthis attacking the ships? The latest Isreali offensive which is your ally.

Could we keep US or Israeli strategy out of this thread please.