Politics The future of European defence strategy & manufacturing

[Mike1976]

No, wrong answer. I'm talking about civil discourse. Without it, it makes your arguments rather petty with a preformed confirmation bias which brings your integrity into question.

What nation are you from? And would you like it if an American insulted your elected leaders? If the answer is no, then you have issues with integrity because you'd now be a hypocrite with double standards. If the answer is yes, well that is a boundary thing and you have no right to expect the same with others.

I'm just asking you to curb your insults and to remain civil and not be rude to the Americans, please.

Go cry about it to your Dear Leader who does so all the time, his bluntness being one of the main reasons why Americans voted for him, again.

 

[LimaCharles]

Go cry about it to your Dear Leader who does so all the time, his bluntness being one of the main reasons why Americans voted for him, again.

Again, with the fallacies. That's what, three times already with two in this very thread of yours? Is asking to be civil too much for you to bear? If you want your thread to be taken seriously, then start acting the part without the insults or the fallacies.

I don't wake up hating Belgians or others. hate makes one act irrational like you are being right now. If wanting Europe to be able to defend itself without the United States is your goal, I'd start without letting the US live rent free in your head. It clouds your judgement.

 

[Mike1976]

Again, with the fallacies. That's what, three times already with two in this very thread of yours? Is asking to be civil too much for you to bear? If you want your thread to be taken seriously, then start acting the part without the insults or the fallacies.

I don't wake up hating Belgians or others. hate makes one act irrational like you are being right now. If wanting Europe to be able to defend itself without the United States is your goal, I'd start without letting the US live rent free in your head. It clouds your judgement.

While we're bringing up behaviour what I've noticed is that whenever someone disagrees with you you start talking about fallacies, posting styles and calling it insults no matter how the poster expressed the challenge to your views.

Because you lack the intellect to respond in a factual manner. A classic troll.

And that's why I have you on ignore.

 

[Chazman]

Again, with the fallacies. That's what, three times already with two in this very thread of yours? Is asking to be civil too much for you to bear? If you want your thread to be taken seriously, then start acting the part without the insults or the fallacies.

I don't wake up hating Belgians or others. hate makes one act irrational like you are being right now. If wanting Europe to be able to defend itself without the United States is your goal, I'd start without letting the US live rent free in your head. It clouds your judgement.

Various threads have turned into essentially TDS threads here. Don't worry about it. You're not going to change anyone's mind. Actually, I find it entertaining. As TDS melts some of our member's brains, their posts and insults get dumber and dumber. I don't put these folks on ignore, (well, almost never), but I wake up in the morning armed with my cup of black coffee and look forward to the comic relief of their posts. Not everyone is like that, mind you.

Some are gentlemen with a difference of opinion and I enjoy the conversations I might have with them. I'll still stop in every day. The TDS is just an added social and cultural twist.

It's fun for me though, because I got what I voted for and my nation was pulled back from the abyss. I hope some our members can get that one day with their leaders, too.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

It is tiresome, but such is life.

One could argue the same occurred during the Biden admin, which is true, with the actual difference being it was actually warranted and the actual effects were actually dramatic.

Now, however the blame is put on Trump because he is there. But Trump isn't responsible for Europe and its policies, Trump isn't expected to treat Europe as he treats the US, Trump isn't a European leader nor is he a European policy maker.

Sure, his decisions have impacts on Europe, but, first and foremost, Europe is responsible for itself, just like each an every country making up Europe is responsible for itself. And the situation Europe is finding itself in right now is due to Europe and the addiction it created itself around the, perceived, perpetual US over-watch.

 

[LimaCharles]

While we're bringing up behaviour what I've noticed is that whenever someone disagrees with you you start talking about fallacies, posting styles and calling it insults no matter how the poster expressed the challenge to your views.

Because you lack the intellect to respond in a factual manner. A classic troll.

And that's why I have you on ignore.

Some people don't think projection be like it is, but it do. Sorry you feel this way but this more of a You thing than with me.

 

[LimaCharles]

And the situation Europe is finding itself in right now is due to Europe and the addiction it created itself around the, perceived, perpetual US over-watch.

Bingo! This is the situation that really needs to be admitted to, addressed, and fixed. I believe that this is a political issue. Put that same energy as they have for winning hearts and minds for the grift called global warming and in it's place for wanting a stronger mil that doesn't need US support for them, and you'd be in a good starting place.

 

[PEMM]

We can all hate on Trump, but he managed to move European defense forward in two months more than the last decades of civil discussions and meetings.

Assuming that the promises of increased spending and manpower materialize.

 

[LimaCharles]

Various threads have turned into essentially TDS threads here. Don't worry about it. You're not going to change anyone's mind. Actually, I find it entertaining. As TDS melts some of our member's brains, their posts and insults get dumber and dumber. I don't put these folks on ignore, (well, almost never), but I wake up in the morning armed with my cup of black coffee and look forward to the comic relief of their posts. Not everyone is like that, mind you.

Some are gentlemen with a difference of opinion and I enjoy the conversations I might have with them. I'll still stop in every day. The TDS is just an added social and cultural twist.

It's fun for me though, because I got what I voted for and my nation was pulled back from the abyss. I hope some our members can get that one day with their leaders, too.

Oh I am not out to change anyone's mind and those who think they can are delusional. I only have one person on ignore, the 2.0 google translate TDS dude, so much breath taking anger over something that is out of his hands to control in a nation that isn't his residency in.

 

[Nathyl]

Movements in Spain to oust US hands from major defense company.

The Spanish government is pressing General Dynamics (GD) through the partly state owned Indra to recover Santa Bárbara Systems (SBS).

GD acquired SBS from state hands in the last 1990s beating the Krauss-Maffei Wegman bid with much controversy after the Spanish government signed the contract for the procurement and manufacture of the Leopard 2E MBT with KMW, SBS would be the main contractor and assembler in Spain for the german tank.

https://eulerpool.com/en/news/business/power-struggle-over-spain-defense-industry-indr

These moves come after the Spanish government already succeeded in getting Indra, with the support of Escribano and Sapa Placencia, to take control of TESS Defence, the joint venture (with GDELS-SBS) responsible for the production of the two main armoured programmes already underway for the Spanish Army (the 8x8 Dragon and the VAC tracked armoured vehicle).

GDELS-SBS was also removed in favour of Indra from the agreement signed with Rheinmetall for the already approved modernisation of the spanish Leopard 2E fleet and Indra (or Indra controlled TESS) is expected to be the main responsible in Spain for the production and integration of national systems in the Leopard 2A8 to be acquired by Spain as a replacement for the Leopard 2A4 within the Spanish contract of the Leo 2A8 Adquisition Programme.

Spain to Join Leopard 2A8 Main Battle Tank Acquisition Program in Context of European Rearmament

Spain to Join Leopard 2A8 Main Battle Tank Acquisition Program in Context of European Rearmament

armyrecognition.com

Another point of interest for the Spanish government with this climate of European rearmament and US distancing and mistrust is that SBS is also the only subsidiary of GD with capacity to produce large-caliber weapon systems also its Trubia factory is one of the few global facilities capable of managing the complete production process of artillery tubes, from initial design through final qualification.

https://defence-blog.com/us-receives-european-made-155mm-artillery-barrel/

 

[LimaCharles]

We can all hate on Trump, but he managed to move European defense forward in two months more than the last decades of civil discussions and meetings.

Assuming that the promises of increased spending and manpower materialize.

^^ this is how we communicate, cordially without trying to offend. Well done sir.

I'm a big fan of going back to isolationism myself, and only stepping in if asked to by a major ally nation. Edit: with one exception: terrorism. It needs to be extinguished out by us all.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

We can all hate on Trump, but he managed to move European defense forward in two months more than the last decades of civil discussions and meetings.

Assuming that the promises of increased spending and manpower materialize.

That is, indeed, an issue, if not the issue: promises materializing into something.

And if anything Europe, be it as a whole or each country taken individually, has proven to be much more consistent when it comes to telling us "taxes will go up, cost of living will go up, wages won't".
When they promise hard times, you can be sure that will happen.
When they promise hard times as a mean to get better times afterward, you can be sure you will not live long enough to see the "better times".

 

[Chazman]

Oh I am not out to change anyone's mind and those who think they can are delusional. I only have one person on ignore, the 2.0 google translate TDS dude, so much breath taking anger over something that is out of his hands to control in a nation that isn't his residency in.

Oh, I will never put that guy on ignore. He is a source of great entertainment to me.

 

[LimaCharles]

Oh, I will never put that guy on ignore. He is a source of great entertainment to me.

I could have simply said the Google translate guy and y'all would have still figured it out whom I was referring to, heh.

 

[Chazman]

We can all hate on Trump, but he managed to move European defense forward in two months more than the last decades of civil discussions and meetings.

Assuming that the promises of increased spending and manpower materialize.

Well, good 'ole Donny did his part....it's up to Europe now. Actually it always was up to Europe, but Trump woke everyone out of their stupor with a freezing cold bucket of water in the face.

 

[downsizer]

I could have simply said the Google translate guy and y'all would have still figured it out whom I was referring to, heh.

Help me out, who are we talking about here?

 

[Chazman]

So I am going to be the elephant in the room here. Putin needs to go into the wood chipper along with all of his proteges and reforms made but Russia should be addressed and brought into the fold. If that miracle of miracles could happen, you'd all be so much stronger.

I agree that Putin is a bad actor and that Russia as a nation needs to be brought back into the fold. I may be overthinking this, but I wonder if a weakened Putin is a better choice than what might come next. There are no Thomas Jeffersons in the line up. I've heard reports that the oligarchs have had just about enough of him and the disaster he's foisted on them with the Ukraine war. There are also rumblings in Siberia. Is it better to have a Putin who needs to watch his step???

I don't know. Maybe just throw him in a wood chipper and see who emerges. The devil you know vs the devil you don't.

 

[Jake84]

Help me out, who are we talking about here?

Hiryu 2.0

You know, the guy quoting each of us posts and translate them in Hungarian for whatever reason.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Help me out, who are we talking about here?

h2,0

The guy doing entire copy-paste of posts made by other people on reddit and fb.

 

[PEMM]

I agree that Putin is a bad actor and that Russia as a nation needs to be brought back into the fold. I may be overthinking this, but I wonder if a weakened Putin is a better choice than what might come next. There are no Thomas Jeffersons in the line up. I've heard reports that the oligarchs have had just about enough of him and the disaster he's foisted on them with the Ukraine war. There are also rumblings in Siberia. Is it better to have a Putin who needs to watch his step???

I don't know. Maybe just throw him in a wood chipper and see who emerges. The devil you know vs the devil you don't.

Russia is it's own type of a country and doesn't fit into the fold. They don't want to be a country in a group but the country.

Therefore while we may trade in best of times we should always be weary and carry a bigger stick.

Worst idea would be to start trading like nothing happened after the peace. Because they would just rearm and try again. We've done this mistake often enough.