Mil News AUKUS Military and political News

[BCNTM]

Wagner Group recently got slaughtered in Mozambique.

So recent Incidents are more clown shoes than ninja hype.

Still burying the bodies from Syria

 

[muck]

I marvel at people like you who look at this erratic world and think the conditions there are conducive of some sort of overarching agenda, a masterplan spanning many years and thousands of miles.

 

[Fluff]

I marvel at people like you who look at this erratic world and think the conditions there are conducive of some sort of overarching agenda, a masterplan spanning many years and thousands of miles.

Everyone knows a 'Crazy Eddie'

 

[Flagg]

A lot of words with very little meaning. You are such a muppet...

Do it again and you’ll be going on a holiday.

 

[BCNTM]

Aukus: Australia sent ‘extremely satisfied’ letter hours before axing French contract

French Naval Group to invoice Australia for abruptly cancelling submarine contract, says CEO

www.theguardian.com

I think it lost something in translation - "extremely satisfied" they were dumping the French deal ?

 

[Fluff]

Aukus: Australia sent ‘extremely satisfied’ letter hours before axing French contract

French Naval Group to invoice Australia for abruptly cancelling submarine contract, says CEO

www.theguardian.com

I think it lost something in translation - "extremely satisfied" they were dumping the French deal ?

of course I love you.....

...we are getting divorced.....

Thats going to hurt.....

 

[muck]

Perception that France is ‘too soft’ on China fed Australia submarine dispute

As France rages over last week's Australia-UK-US (AUKUS) defence deal that saw Canberra ditch multibillion-dollar submarine contracts, analysts suggest Paris should not have been so shocked – considering…

www.france24.com

The EU, and France, has adopted a pretty weak and submissive stance towards China. Especially during the COVID crisis.
Or even the Uighurs or the HK crisis.

While I wholly agree the EU is much too soft when it comes to China – being pushed down that path by trade nations like Germany or countries like Italy and Greece who tussle with one another for Chinese investments –, I find that conclusion dubious.

Australia wasn't striking a deal with the EU, it was striking a deal with France. It'd struck a deal with France for the delivery and maintaining of submarines, not a bilateral alliance akin to AUKUS. Was France ever even approached about such an alliance?

It seems to me Australia sought a strong partner in the region, which makes the US an obvious choice, and that the US pushed Australia into dropping the French connection in return. Which seems reasonable enough; one has to give in order to receive.

However, France has strategic interests in the region. It has some 1.5 million citizens in the pacific region that need protecting. Alienating such a potentially useful partner was stupid. Normally, diplomatically experienced governments would endeavour to avoid such stupidity.

 

[morris]

However, France has strategic interests in the region. It has some 1.5 million citizens in the pacific region that need protecting. Alienating such a potentially useful partner was stupid.

In this region France needs Australia more then Australia needs France but French politicians arrogance and stupidity prevent them from understanding that simple fact so now they compete with Chincom for the title of biggest whinger of the day every day. I pity France for having such leaders

 

[Flagg]

Aukus: Australia sent ‘extremely satisfied’ letter hours before axing French contract

French Naval Group to invoice Australia for abruptly cancelling submarine contract, says CEO

www.theguardian.com

I think it lost something in translation - "extremely satisfied" they were dumping the French deal ?

Have any credible reports emerged of when the new nuke boats will be patrolling?

If Collins class is anything to go by, it's a decade from cutting steel to first-patrol.

The biggest concerns I see are:

1) Leasing Virginia-class subs, at least one operational trainer, would be the quickest single win.

2) Australian government/military/industry seeking industrial offsets would be the 2nd quickest and 2nd $$ win.

3) Sub construction in Australia will be the longest and most $$ expensive holdup.

4) Sub design, anything other than off-the-shelf Virginia/Astute would be the 2nd longest and 2nd most $$ holdup.

If I were the Pope of Australia, I'd do the following:

8 Virginia-Class Boats built in the US in Block V-VII configuration with an increased shipyard build rate from 2 a year to 3 and possibly 4.

Lease 1-2 Virginia-Class operational training conversion submarines in conjunction with a US Navy sub squadron forward deployment to Perth

Industrial offsets to Australia include R&D, manufacturing, and testing of Boeing ATS Loyal Wingman and associated persistent but perishable unmanned air systems.

Industrial offsets to Australia include R&D, manufacturing, and testing of underwater unmanned platforms, systems, and sensors that are more appropriate to Australia's maritime manufacturing capacity and capability.

Industrial offsets to Australia include fully independent support infrastructure for Virginia class including some USN Virginia-class support service $.

If Australia is locked into the US submarine systems ecosystem for 50 years, then directly incorporating Australian industry and jobs into the persistent but perishable unmanned systems and sensors industry for air, land, sea, space would be fair.

In 20-25 years we will probably see a massive shift towards unmanned systems and sensors way beyond just A2AD.

 

[morris]

Treasurer warns against exporters putting 'all their eggs' in China basket

The federal Treasurer has discouraged businesses from relying on China after Australia’s security pact with the US and UK. The federal government has not ruled out economic sanctions from China as a reaction to the AUKUS pact. Earlier this year, it imposed hefty tariffs on Australian barley and...

www.4bc.com.au

 

[Flagg]

While I wholly agree the EU is much too soft when it comes to China – being pushed down that path by trade nations like Germany or countries like Italy and Greece who tussle with one another for Chinese investments –, I find that conclusion dubious.

Australia wasn't striking a deal with the EU, it was striking a deal with France. It'd struck a deal with France for the delivery and maintaining of submarines, not a bilateral alliance akin to AUKUS. Was France ever even approached about such an alliance?

It seems to me Australia sought a strong partner in the region, which makes the US an obvious choice, and that the US pushed Australia into dropping the French connection in return. Which seems reasonable enough; one has to give in order to receive.

However, France has strategic interests in the region. It has some 1.5 million citizens in the pacific region that need protecting. Alienating such a potentially useful partner was stupid. Normally, diplomatically experienced governments would endeavour to avoid such stupidity.

It's not just national pride, it's amortizing the cost of R&D for new French Navy subs across a bigger production run.

The Australian submarine order cancellation means every French sub built from here is going to be a lot more expensive.

There's only so much money to go around.

If I was a French taxpayer, I'd be asking why this cancellation is going to cost me more money.

So it's logical for the French government to deflect blame away from themselves and their defence contractors.

Surely a few heads will roll.....along with layoffs. But getting rid of staff in France isn't easy.

 

[Flagg]

Hey, how did you do that? ? ? ?

To be clear.

There is absolutely zero tolerance for baiting, insulting, trolling, and sh!tposting.

You are one of several in the target deck.

Be polite and professional or you’ll be gone.

I hope you choose the former, because if you choose the latter there will be no debate or discussion, you’ll be banned without further warning.

 

[morris]

Members of the Quad, a grouping of the US, Australia, India and Japan, are expected to concentrate on non-military initiatives following the creation of the Aukus security pact, government officials and analysts said ahead of the first in-person leaders’ meeting in Washington on Friday.

U.S. rules out adding India, Japan to AUKUS

On Sept. 15, U.S. President Joe Biden, Australian PM Scott Morrison and British PM Boris Johnson jointly announced the formation of the trilateral security alliance AUKUS under which Australia would get a fleet of nuclear-powered submarines for the first time.

www.thehindu.com

 

[morris]

Now that Russia and China are having the pressure put on them by new alliance, I wonder if they could form a loose maritime coalition to mirror the AUKUS pact?

Also, when it seems that a new market for nuclear-powered submarines is being created, will Russia, China and France put their nuclear-powered submarines on the market?

 

[Flagg]

Now that Russia and China are having the pressure put on them by new alliance, I wonder if they could form a loose maritime coalition to mirror the AUKUS pact?

Also, when it seems that a new market for nuclear-powered submarines is being created, will Russia, China and France put their nuclear-powered submarines on the market?

Well Russia has leased two nuke boats to India starting in 1987, with a 3rd to come in 2025.

I would imagine Pakistan possibly having similar ambitions as a counter-India national prestige project.

I would also imagine China leveraging Sri Lanka for placing a sub squadron there someday, perhaps.

It’s not like Sri Lanka can really say no after China’s support for them liquidating the Tamil Tigers.

 

[Flagg]

Members of the Quad, a grouping of the US, Australia, India and Japan, are expected to concentrate on non-military initiatives following the creation of the Aukus security pact, government officials and analysts said ahead of the first in-person leaders’ meeting in Washington on Friday.

U.S. rules out adding India, Japan to AUKUS

On Sept. 15, U.S. President Joe Biden, Australian PM Scott Morrison and British PM Boris Johnson jointly announced the formation of the trilateral security alliance AUKUS under which Australia would get a fleet of nuclear-powered submarines for the first time.

www.thehindu.com

I would posit that the coalition of US/AU/UK is akin to NATO, Japan is akin to France, and India, Vietnam, and Singapore are akin to Finland/Austria/Sweden.

They can train and develop interoperability to greater/lesser degrees and very discretely align on strategy to contain/counter China.

But they can’t openly and blatantly state such a position.

Why?

Because this isn’t the Soviet Union that never represented an economic threat, this is the CCP which does represent a clear and present economic threat to most everyone.

So there will be discrete and even quite sensitive back room deals. Akin to Sweden’s Viggen engine tech transfer.

 

[Redav]

Australia in talks to lease, buy existing subs​

September 23, 2021, by Fatima Bahtić
The Australian government will be in discussions to lease or buy the existing submarines from the US and UK in the next 12 to 18 months, Australia’s Minister for Defence Peter Dutton revealed.
The information was confirmed in a transcript released by the defence ministry three days ago. Last week, the government announced its plans to build at least eight nuclear-powered submarines under a new Indo-Pacific security partnership with the United States and Britain, AUKUS.
Nuclear powered submarines have superior characteristics of stealth, speed, maneuverability, survivability and substantial endurance compared to the conventional ones. These abilities allow nuclear-powered submarines to operate in contested areas with a lower risk of detection.
The first initiative under AUKUS is for Australia to acquire nuclear-powered submarine technology, focusing on identifying the optimal pathway to deliver the submarines.

Australia in talks to lease, buy existing subs

Australian government will be in discussions to lease or buy the existing submarines from the US and UK in the next 12 to 18 months, Australia's Minister for Defence Peter Dutton revealed.

www.navaltoday.com

 

[Fluff]

Australia in talks to lease, buy existing subs​

September 23, 2021, by Fatima Bahtić
The Australian government will be in discussions to lease or buy the existing submarines from the US and UK in the next 12 to 18 months, Australia’s Minister for Defence Peter Dutton revealed.
The information was confirmed in a transcript released by the defence ministry three days ago. Last week, the government announced its plans to build at least eight nuclear-powered submarines under a new Indo-Pacific security partnership with the United States and Britain, AUKUS.
Nuclear powered submarines have superior characteristics of stealth, speed, maneuverability, survivability and substantial endurance compared to the conventional ones. These abilities allow nuclear-powered submarines to operate in contested areas with a lower risk of detection.
The first initiative under AUKUS is for Australia to acquire nuclear-powered submarine technology, focusing on identifying the optimal pathway to deliver the submarines.

Australia in talks to lease, buy existing subs

Australian government will be in discussions to lease or buy the existing submarines from the US and UK in the next 12 to 18 months, Australia's Minister for Defence Peter Dutton revealed.

www.navaltoday.com

Er wow.

So maybe, with the help of the life extension on the Collins, Oz is going to take a uk boat and a US boat, so this will give them training and experience, and a rapid change in the strategic situation in the SCS. Maybe Oz then decides which bits they like.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

While I wholly agree the EU is much too soft when it comes to China – being pushed down that path by trade nations like Germany or countries like Italy and Greece who tussle with one another for Chinese investments –, I find that conclusion dubious.

Australia wasn't striking a deal with the EU, it was striking a deal with France. It'd struck a deal with France for the delivery and maintaining of submarines, not a bilateral alliance akin to AUKUS. Was France ever even approached about such an alliance?

It seems to me Australia sought a strong partner in the region, which makes the US an obvious choice, and that the US pushed Australia into dropping the French connection in return. Which seems reasonable enough; one has to give in order to receive.

However, France has strategic interests in the region. It has some 1.5 million citizens in the pacific region that need protecting. Alienating such a potentially useful partner was stupid. Normally, diplomatically experienced governments would endeavour to avoid such stupidity.

Could we even describe the relation created between France and Australia, through the now defunct sub-contract, a "partnership" or even an "alliance"?

Sure it is, or was, much more massive than the selling of Exocet ASM to Argentina or Iraq, but selling high-end hardware does not necessarily implies the existence of a "partnership" or an "alliance".
France sold frigates (6 La Fayette) to Taiwan back in 1996, which coincided with the "French military Revival" (including the resuming of nuclear tests), but this was nothing but a "regular" commercial deal. It wasn't meant to bolster France's presence in the region or to increase the safety of its assets.

Selling these subs to Australia was nothing but business, not really a mean to increase the protection of French Polynesia. And even if the deal had gone through, I doubt French Polynesia would have really benefited from it (apart from finding itself under Australia's umbrella).

But taking the US deal on the other hand ends up being much more interesting since it does not stop to just being subs being sold. As you said Australia ends up with regional partners and allies, and it opens the door to more prospective partnerships.
From a pragmatic point of view, it fits well, if not perfectly well, in the already existing QSD dynamics. Australia has all these partners and prospective partners (Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc...) right there.
Whereas France? Well... France is an entity far far away, frankly, barely paying attention and/or caring about its assets in the region (at least "as much as" England is caring about the Falklands).

 

[Flagg]

Sure. I assume all these people were issued similar warnings for OT, insults, trolling right? Privately...

You can assume that your behaviour, including passive aggressive snark, will lead to your immediate ban.

If you are looking for some sense of equity or equal justice in the poor behaviour you and others have exhibited here please understand that as a mod group, we have all noticed you for all the wrong reasons.

Change your behaviour immediately and post like a professional or you will be banned without further warning.

I‘m not writing any more on this topic, nor are you.