Photos Armenia v Azerbaijan

[Chazman]

Could be a flash point for NATO via Turkey too.

I don't think NATO is interested in getting involved in Turkish adventurism.

 

[1645556315]

the question is would you want to go into a war in a Abrams or a T90? - I think there is a really easy answer to that one

Not that easy. Much more countries choose T-90 to purchase, after all it is most bestseller tank in the modern history.

 

[1645556315]

Topography map. Terrain is a very major factor in the conflict.
Azeris managed to advance only in plains.

 

[1645556315]

Agreed, i mean more production cost, not this particular conflict case. International arms sales is far from just commercial market and prices very different in every case even for comparable products. iirc Russia buy few dozens Israely Searcher drones for about $3.5mln each and i think it is more sophisticated UAV then suicide drone (though i could be wrong).

One more point i missed in an economical side of drone warfire is a decoys cost. Simple inflatable decoy probably priced below $10K and realistic decoy with proper thermal, radio, audio signatures can be produced for lower then $100K for sure.

Just checked AliExpress and quite surprised. Lots of decent real size inflatable tanks and other armour for sale for about $2K each!

 

[nicememe]

the question is would you want to go into a war in a Abrams or a T90? - I think there is a really easy answer to that one

Which one of the two is easier to operate, refuel, repair and get back into combat after sustained damages?

 

[morris]

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[morris]

 

[tea-drinker]

^looks like there is a lead for Azerbaijan in the international outrage market. Armenia can easily lose the press war as well

Going back to the drone vs tank, with the pretty decent self defence systems of modern tanks operating in the horizontal plane one wonders how hard it is to integrate an effective vertical defence into the same systems? Maybe someone is already doing that?

 

[thanamestolga]

I agree with you on the doctrine use Thanamestolga, and the idea of trowing money gear and ordnance in exchange for enemy casualties in an atrition war that Armenia couldnt ever dream on wining.

The problem I do see, is that Azerbaijan, seem to have sustained some heavy casualties in engagements with the Armenians, that simply diluted the gains of embracing this doctrine.

IMHO it would have been better for Azerbaijan interests and treasure, to have engaged in a long attrition war against Armenia, making it unsustainable for them in the mid term run, by theowing their economy and whole country stability down into the gutter.

They seem to have decided to throw both the treasure and gadgets + the piles of corpses for very small gains.
Sure, that US, Russia, Turkey, France, UK, South Korea, Japan and any other advanced military forces can wear down an enemy with a small/less technologically advanced army. Seems that Azerbaijan was time constrained and that they threw precaution out of the window, sustaining casualties they shouldnt have incurred had they stuck with the doctrine.

Dunno, seems that original plan didnt work as intended from the available info I have come accross.

Off topic. Good to see you around Thanasmestolga. With all the deployments and operations Turkish military has around at any moment during the last few years, I always remember the old Turkish members at MPnet, hoping that they are doing fine.

Once again, good to see you around safe, sound and still kicking. Regards from Spain mate ?

There are a lot of factors and variables at play. This Turkish doctrine was implemented for the first time 1 year and 2 days ago, so it could even be considered new for its creators, let alone any third country that would want to implement. We'd also have to take into account the recent changes in the Azerbaijani chain of command. If things being said is true, Azerbaijan is going through a shift in command structure as of June-July 2020 with the old guard so to speak being kicked out of command and being replaced with "the new". Certainly, this would also reflect on the Azerbaijani operational sustainability in the field.

Regardless, Azerbaijan can certainly afford to wear down Armenia. However, as of last night with the large strikes on Gence, Armenia has escalated the conflict from the two sides fighting over Karabakh to Azerbaijani territory being directly targeted via territory of Armenia. This could very well be to provoke direct Azerbaijani response on Armenian territory and this could give the Armenians an excuse to pull Russia into the conflict directly.

Re the off topic; always good to see other MPnetters

How much does the MAM munition cost? I cannot find anything about it but, surely, it's not a few thousand dollars. Let's say, an U.S.-made Hellfire missile cost well over $160k over 20 years ago. I know the MAM-L is not the Hellfire and the labour costs are much lower in Turkey.

India bought 10 Harop suicide drones for $100mln in 2009, so a unit price was $10mln. It's bloody expensive, so it's totally uneconomical to attack a tank with it. Maybe an S-300 system, but not something that is worth less than $10mln.

India to buy Harop suicide drones from Israel

Israel is India's main drone supplier.

www.jpost.com

Below half of a hellfire.

Not in NATO Charter territory and with Turkey's current "popularity" among EU and NATO members everyone is going to be turning a blind eye to any retaliatory strike on internationally recognized Turkish territory that might occur from Erdogan's interference in regional conflicts.

The idea of NATO is defending against an unprovoked attack. Not kicking Russia or anyone else in the nuts and then jumping back into your backyard yelling "Help!".

What gives you the idea that it is an unprovoked attack? Are you somehow qualified or have frontline information from some mid level signals officer on one side or the other? I'd certainly like to know this essential piece of information you seem to have under your sleeve? The confidence behind some of the posts on this forum is amazing.

 

[1645556315]

Russian reporters in Hadrut. Azeris still can not capture the town.

 

[1645556315]

Nagorno-karabakh sniper team.

 

[Fluff]

Topography map. Terrain is a very major factor in the conflict.
Azeris managed to advance only in plains.

Also suggests they are fighting over a whole lot of nothing, mountains, probably a few trees. Really worth dying for......They would be better to agree a mutual explotation deal, roads, a port, sell wood, ski resort etc....

 

[Fluff]

Which one of the two is easier to operate, refuel, repair and get back into combat after sustained damages?

That wasnt the question. Undoubtably the Russian gear is probably easier to operate, and more familiar to the locals. I dont think there are many armchair generals that would take a T90 over an abrams or leo2, if given a free choice.

And all of the points armour, mobility, crew skills, repairability, will feed into the outcome, plus drone support, infantry support etc etc.

The western designers have gone with crew survivability, as has Israel, and logically so has Russia with armata. Which seems to settle the argument.

 

[Fluff]

^looks like there is a lead for Azerbaijan in the international outrage market. Armenia can easily lose the press war as well

Going back to the drone vs tank, with the pretty decent self defence systems of modern tanks operating in the horizontal plane one wonders how hard it is to integrate an effective vertical defence into the same systems? Maybe someone is already doing that?

overhead should in theory be easier, as there shouldn't be any ground clutter to deal with. But your not going to want to emit anything, so some sort of EO system, cueing the MG system. Or a variation of the stealth radars, using offboard emitters..... i.e. drop one off every 200 metres, also stick it in a decoy tank.....

 

[BravoZulu]

Azerbaijani IAI Harop suicide drones

 

[Fluff]

Azerbaijani IAI Harop suicide drones

wow, they got a s**t load....I still think their tactics suck. I wonder how many they can control at one time?

 

[nicememe]

That wasnt the question. Undoubtably the Russian gear is probably easier to operate, and more familiar to the locals. I dont think there are many armchair generals that would take a T90 over an abrams or leo2, if given a free choice.

And all of the points armour, mobility, crew skills, repairability, will feed into the outcome, plus drone support, infantry support etc etc.

The western designers have gone with crew survivability, as has Israel, and logically so has Russia with armata. Which seems to settle the argument.

Pretty sure given free choice they wouldn’t go to war to begin with. As for generals, pretty sure they’d choose efficiency and replaceability over anything else, given free choice.

 

[Fluff]

Pretty sure given free choice they wouldn’t go to war to begin with. As for generals, pretty sure they’d choose efficiency and replaceability over anything else, given free choice.

Well its clear different countries take different views, of all these items. also simplicity doesnt necessarily lead to reliability. Look at todays cars, far more parts than a Model T, yet only visit the garage every 2 years.

Otherwise we'd still be using shermans and T34's.....

 

[Gordus]

Azerbaijan fights for the flat lands. That's it. Tey push far as they can, then foritfy until they can organize another campaign. It's a creeping absorption, very classic to the Caucasus region. They won't take a terrible gamble such as trying to secure mountain ranges. Not now at least. They'd suffer massive losses in doing so. Only to get pushed ou immediatly or some months later, and risk a rout. No matter how many Soviet metal boxes they take out with drones.

 

[nicememe]

Well its clear different countries take different views, of all these items. also simplicity doesnt necessarily lead to reliability. Look at todays cars, far more parts than a Model T, yet only visit the garage every 2 years.

Otherwise we'd still be using shermans and T34's.....

Repairing modern cars certainly became more expensive, as it's much more difficult to source parts or get through all of the complications to reach the piece that needs fixing or replacing.
It's kind of the same today as with smartphones and laptops. The device becomes not a collection of replaceable parts, but rather a complex organism that's best fixed by throwing it away and buying a new one. (certainly what apple likes to do in their repair shops, hence why repair costs are half of the cost of the device, but can't blame them. The more complicated a machine is, the more expertise and equipment you need to fix it. So you either pay for the service of talented experienced engineers, or you just replace entire motherboard/internals with new ones.)