Photos Armenia v Azerbaijan

[1645556315]

India bought 10 Harop suicide drones for $100mln in 2009, so a unit price was $10mln. It's bloody expensive, so it's totally uneconomical to attack a tank with it. Maybe an S-300 system, but not something that is worth less than $10mln.

iirc abrams cost about $9mln and t-90 $4mln. Old T-72 price is much lower of couse.
I think suicide drone can be produced at cost below $1mln when produced in big numbers, so any armour is a worth target, but not trucks or MRLS or artillery pieces.

 

[Hiryu2.0]

- and the weather was good all the way, so the drones could fly.

 

[Musashi]

iirc abrams cost about $9mln and t-90 $4mln. Old T-72 price is much lower of couse.
I think suicide drone can be produced at cost below $1mln when produced in big numbers, so any armour is a worth target, but not trucks or MRLS or artillery pieces.

I know about it, but you are not Santa Claus, so you don't sell your stuff abroad, offering domestic prices. If India paid $100mln for 10 drones 11 years ago, I don't believe that Israel sold 50 Harops to Azerbaijan for $5mln each.

 

[nicememe]

Are you mentioned Merkel, she ruled for about 15 years? And her name was not actually on the ballot at all.

Man, you live in a freaking Kingdom and can not vote even for one name. Think we call it pseudo-democracy.
Same with US of A when only two political parties share all power and no one other can compete.

Very small number of countries is a real dictatorships, other more or less democratic (yes i mean China and Iran are also democraties).

Democracy in the west is an interesting phenomenon. Especially with regard to EU referendums (keep voting until you vote the way we like), closed table of industrialists, ostracism in the council of ministers, EU court where judges are required to swear allegiance to EU in ruling on cases of conflict of interest between member states, migrant fiasco. Combine that with MSM that acts like an echo chamber pushing one point of view and underreporting or silencing alternative povs, disabling comment sections on news sites, deleting/censoring alternative POV comments under articles on sites which still have comment sections, unleashing “anti-fake news” campaigns to make sure the narrative is “right”. Then you had crap like MK Ultra in the US aimed at pacifying the public to prevent it from rebelling against a violent foreign policy.
As a Brit, didn’t Fluff watch the Yes, Minister series at all? A nice watch.

Today’s democracy looks like walking a thin line between looking democratic enough to the public, but enforcing important decisions from inside the bureaucratic apparatus and trying to sell them to the public via the echo chamber. Even though this was hard to spot in the recent past, it’s becoming more apparent with every year.

 

[Dercius]

How much does the MAM munition cost? I cannot find anything about it but, surely, it's not a few thousand dollars. Let's say, an U.S.-made Hellfire missile cost well over $160k over 20 years ago. I know the MAM-L is not the Hellfire and the labour costs are much lower in Turkey.

India bought 10 Harop suicide drones for $100mln in 2009, so a unit price was $10mln. It's bloody expensive, so it's totally uneconomical to attack a tank with it. Maybe an S-300 system, but not something that is worth less than $10mln.

India to buy Harop suicide drones from Israel

Israel is India's main drone supplier.

www.jpost.com

I tend to think that 10mil for 5 or 6 cargo 200 is a bloody good expense rate for any military in a war situation with a capable enemy army, especially if you sustain no casualties in return. To the monetary cost per KIA you can add the damage in morale to the rear echelons and civilian society.

Nobody wants to die for nothing, and everybody is afraid of an enemy that kills without beeing seen, localized or countered. The damage to the morale of a fighting force under such operational conditions can be atrocious.

Just my thoughts.

I always tend to think that is a slippery slope, when Leaders around and their societies start to think that wars are an active and atractive "diplomatic" tool, just because their side sustains almost no casualties. We certainly have had a very small taste of that in the last decades, and the results have been atrocious. If the trend is picked by more actors, i cant help but to tremble about what the future may bring.

 

[Musashi]

Indeed Armenia 2 M populated small country stucked between Turkey and Azerbaijan. She spend too much money for defence and seems to be not sunstainable long long years for her economy.

Armenia is a country of 3mln people, rather than 2mln, so you reduced its population by 1/3.

Furthermore, its military spending is on par with Azerbaijan's in terms of the percentage of the GDP. Armenia spends a bigger percentage of its budget on the military than Azerbaijan right now, but the situation was totally opposite in 2010-2015.

 

[1645556315]

I know about it, but you are not Santa Claus, so you don't sell your stuff abroad, offering domestic prices. If India paid $100mln for 10 drones 11 years ago, I don't believe that Israel sold 50 Harops to Azerbaijan for $5mln each.

Agreed, i mean more production cost, not this particular conflict case. International arms sales is far from just commercial market and prices very different in every case even for comparable products. iirc Russia buy few dozens Israely Searcher drones for about $3.5mln each and i think it is more sophisticated UAV then suicide drone (though i could be wrong).

 

[musti]

, I don't believe that Israel sold 50 Harops to Azerbaijan for $5mln each.

It can give opinion. Turkey had bought 108 Harpy anti-radar loitreing munitions which is base model of harop from Israel about 90M USD in 2001.

Harpy has autonom anti-radar seeker like HARM while Harop has a cam system for targeting. Harop based on harpy.

l dont know exact price but IMHO it should be about 1 M usd. ıf inflaiton added.

 

[Fluff]

Are you mentioned Merkel, she ruled for about 15 years? And her name was not actually on the ballot at all.

Man, you live in a freaking Kingdom and can not vote even for one name. Think we call it pseudo-democracy.
Same with US of A when only two political parties share all power and no one other can compete.

Very small number of countries is a real dictatorships, other more or less democratic (yes i mean China and Iran are also democraties).

Now we have Boris, we need never vote again.....

 

[Fluff]

It can give opinion. Turkey had bought 108 Harpy anti-radar loitreing munitions which is base model of harop from Israel about 90M USD in 2001.

Harpy has autonom anti-radar seeker like HARM while Harop has a cam system for targeting. Harop based on harpy.

l dont know exact price but IMHO it should be about 1 M usd. ıf inflaiton added.

its possible that india did buy 10 for $100M back in 2010. Now the design costs have been paid up, its also possible that you can now buy them for around $1M. Expensive bits are the engine, and the EO turret. The logic of destroying an EO turret every time is a little questionable. It is really just a big RC plane.....

 

[Fluff]

Democracy in the west is an interesting phenomenon. Especially with regard to EU referendums (keep voting until you vote the way we like), closed table of industrialists, ostracism in the council of ministers, EU court where judges are required to swear allegiance to EU in ruling on cases of conflict of interest between member states, migrant fiasco. Combine that with MSM that acts like an echo chamber pushing one point of view and underreporting or silencing alternative povs, disabling comment sections on news sites, deleting/censoring alternative POV comments under articles on sites which still have comment sections, unleashing “anti-fake news” campaigns to make sure the narrative is “right”. Then you had crap like MK Ultra in the US aimed at pacifying the public to prevent it from rebelling against a violent foreign policy.
As a Brit, didn’t Fluff watch the Yes, Minister series at all? A nice watch.

Today’s democracy looks like walking a thin line between looking democratic enough to the public, but enforcing important decisions from inside the bureaucratic apparatus and trying to sell them to the public via the echo chamber. Even though this was hard to spot in the recent past, it’s becoming more apparent with every year.

Really? Brexit comes from the EU/MSN? Bureaucracy? So if us voters are nothing more than clapping bunnies, whats your great alternative?

 

[nicememe]

Really? Brexit comes from the EU/MSN? Bureaucracy? So if us voters are nothing more than clapping bunnies, whats your great alternative?

I anticipated you mentioning Brexit. Since that's pretty much the only example you can use in your defense.
I was actually in UK when the whole Brexit extravaganza was unfolding. A lot of people lost friends because of it. Society was at a boiling point with it. Was funny to observe. People even threw accusations at me for supporting the majority vote, to which I was just shrugging and saying "well, you wanted democracy, why are you crying now?" ? Good times.

 

[Fluff]

I anticipated you mentioning Brexit. Since that's pretty much the only example you can use in your defense.
I was actually in UK when the whole Brexit extravaganza was unfolding. A lot of people lost friends because of it. Society was at a boiling point with it. Was funny to observe. People even threw accusations at me for supporting the majority vote, to which I was just shrugging and saying "well, you wanted democracy, why are you crying now?" ? Good times.

Take that as no alternative then. indeed a lot of emotion over Brexit, we will never know the alternative, except perhaps to see how EU fares, compared to UK. Still at least no-one died trying to leave the EU, unlike the poor bastards in Hungary, Czechoslovakia etc etc,......

 

[nicememe]

Take that as no alternative then. indeed a lot of emotion over Brexit, we will never know the alternative, except perhaps to see how EU fares, compared to UK. Still at least no-one died trying to leave the EU, unlike the poor bastards in Hungary, Czechoslovakia etc etc,......

The thing with Brexit, enough people in the establishment in UK supported it for it to happen in the first place.
And as far as EU is concerned, it seems as though EU wasn't all that against Brexit either, at least as far as EU's juggernauts - France and Germany were concerned.
Whether it was because they wanted to make an example of the UK to show what consequences a member state will have to suffer if it dares to leave, or whether they were solving internal rivalry issues by giving UK the boot. Or both. (pretty sure it's both) But whatever the case, you can't deem Brexit solely the decision of the UK proletariat.
France was always interested in taking UK's place not only in EU terms, but also in NATO terms. Taking UK's place as the main provider of the "nuclear umbrella" for Europe, and fighting for "2nd place" in the NATO alliance after the US. (I think they even sent a delegation to the US right after the Brexit vote happened, hoping to become NATO's number two.)
So even though you may deem Brexit a triumph for democracy, it was really long in the making and a question of time, the public’s vote was the final nail on the coffin.

 

[Fluff]

The thing with Brexit, enough people in the establishment in UK supported it for it to happen in the first place.
And as far as EU is concerned, it seems as though EU wasn't all that against Brexit either, at least as far as EU's juggernauts - France and Germany were concerned.
Whether it was because they wanted to make an example of the UK to show what consequences a member state will have to suffer if it dares to leave, or whether they were solving internal rivalry issues by giving UK the boot. Or both. (pretty sure it's both) But whatever the case, you can't deem Brexit solely the decision of the UK proletariat.
France was always interested in taking UK's place not only in EU terms, but also in NATO terms. Taking UK's place as the main provider of the "nuclear umbrella" for Europe, and fighting for "2nd place" in the NATO alliance after the US. (I think they even sent a delegation to the US right after the Brexit vote happened, hoping to become NATO's number two.)
So even though you may deem Brexit a triumph for democracy, it was really long in the making and a question of time, the public’s vote was the final nail on the coffin.

Are you not allowed to mention Hungary? Probably an excluded subject in your contract?

of course you forget that we voted to go into what was then the EEC. So France can play its games, as it seems to be doing with Turkey etc. France always has high regard for its own skills, in many areas.

The UK doesnt take much notice of France, in terms of US relationship.

So then years later, we decided its not for us. Of course it can be presented as the voters following the politicians. Better than not getting any choice as to the countries policies, wouldnt you say?

 

[nicememe]

Are you not allowed to mention Hungary? Probably an excluded subject in your contract?

of course you forget that we voted to go into what was then the EEC. So France can play its games, as it seems to be doing with Turkey etc. France always has high regard for its own skills, in many areas.

The UK doesnt take much notice of France, in terms of US relationship.

So then years later, we decided its not for us. Of course it can be presented as the voters following the politicians. Better than not getting any choice as to the countries policies, wouldnt you say?

Not really sure what you're trying to get at here. But I'm sensing some kind of moral supremacist drivel; and something about me being on a "pay roll" just because I'm not circle-jerking democracy.

Again, I never said anything for or against democracy. As I am saying from the very beginning on this forum - "to each his own". Sounds more tame, than trying to shove my ideology down everyone's throat, wouldn't you agree?
All I said with regard to the modern-day west, is that its democracy is highly manipulative, and is more so democratic in image than it is in practice.
Bringing up who did what during or after WW2, or during the Cold War, is (how you westerners like to call it) - "whataboutism"
Damn, I waited for so many years to finally see a world in which I would be able to use that word with regard to western posters. I lived long enough to fulfill that desire!

 

[Fluff]

Not really sure what you're trying to get at here. But I'm sensing some kind of moral supremacist drivel; and something about me being on a "pay roll" just because I'm not circle-jerking democracy.

Again, I never said anything for or against democracy. As I am saying from the very beginning on this forum - "to each his own". Sounds more tame, than trying to shove my ideology down everyone's throat, wouldn't you agree?
All I said with regard to the modern-day west, is that its democracy is highly manipulative, and is more so democratic in image than it is in practice.
Bringing up who did what during or after WW2, or during the Cold War, is (how you westerners like to call it) - "whataboutism"
Damn, I waited for so many years to finally see a world in which I would be able to use that word with regard to western posters. I lived long enough to fulfill that desire!

Wow, are you having an office party? Must be some good stuff being passed around. Who mentioned WW2?

You seem to know a lot about democracy? you suggest its worse to be manipulated, then vote, than to never vote? Do you want to ask all our ex-prime ministers, if they believe in democracy?

You dont deny it do you, on payroll, and not allowed to mention Hungary. Probably cant say anything negative, so you resort to name calling, and somehow WW2 comes in, are you going to mention Hitler next? Or your peace loving 'holiday' to Afghanistan, really taught those afghans a thing or 2......

And the Cold War, that ended 30 years ago, and ahem, you lost it.......

 

[BCNTM]

Are you mentioned Merkel, she ruled for about 15 years? And her name was not actually on the ballot at all.

Man, you live in a freaking Kingdom and can not vote even for one name. Think we call it pseudo-democracy.
Same with US of A when only two political parties share all power and no one other can compete.

Very small number of countries is a real dictatorships, other more or less democratic (yes i mean China and Iran are also democraties).

I would point out
You live in a freaking fake democracy and can only vote for one name.

 

[Musashi]

I would point out
You live in a freaking fake democracy and can only vote for one name.

It looks like nicememe is an ethnic Russian who lives in Lithuania.

He says he used to live in the UK, but I'd assume he used to live in the U.S.A.:

Damn, I waited for so many years to finally see a world in which I would be able to use that word with regard to western posters. I lived long enough to fulfill that desire!

[My emphasis]

It's time to stop this pro-/anti-Brexit or pro/-anti-democracy sh1tshow and stick to the main topic.

 

[Fluff]

your right.

So do we have a cease fire or not? i.e. a bit of small arms doesnt count - unless on the receiving end of course.