Photos Armenia v Azerbaijan

[Musashi]

your right.

So do we have a cease fire or not? i.e. a bit of small arms doesnt count - unless on the receiving end of course.

The Azeris have openly stated that they are not going to stick to the agreement, as implementing the ceasefire is "impossible":

Баграмян 26

🔥Баку заявил, что перемирие не вступило в силу Глава МИД Азербайджана заявил, что прекращение огня в Карабахе еще не началось из-за отсутствия условий для его реализации:ТАСС @Bagramyan26

t.me

(in Russian)

 

[BCNTM]

iirc abrams cost about $9mln and t-90 $4mln. Old T-72 price is much lower of couse.
I think suicide drone can be produced at cost below $1mln when produced in big numbers, so any armour is a worth target, but not trucks or MRLS or artillery pieces.

the question is would you want to go into a war in a Abrams or a T90? - I think there is a really easy answer to that one

 

[nicememe]

Wow, are you having an office party? Must be some good stuff being passed around. Who mentioned WW2?

You seem to know a lot about democracy? you suggest its worse to be manipulated, then vote, than to never vote? Do you want to ask all our ex-prime ministers, if they believe in democracy?

You dont deny it do you, on payroll, and not allowed to mention Hungary. Probably cant say anything negative, so you resort to name calling, and somehow WW2 comes in, are you going to mention Hitler next? Or your peace loving 'holiday' to Afghanistan, really taught those afghans a thing or 2......

And the Cold War, that ended 30 years ago, and ahem, you lost it.......

And here I thought I was talking to an adult.

 

[Fluff]

the question is would you want to go into a war in a Abrams or a T90? - I think there is a really easy answer to that one

and a lot of these kills have been old T72 I think? So these were probably bought for what half a mil each maybe? Lots of T72's lying around in the 00's.

So as a propaganda item, I get it, but in straight $$ terms, it doesnt seem to make sense. Also I hope an Abrams would stand up to a large RC aircraft, with a hand grenade tied to it, doing about 200kph, a bit better than we have seen so far.

Also wonder how many they actually bought. I mean a better plan surely would be to saturate one area, with these, kill everything that moves, especially the fixed bases of Armenians, then send in the tanks. Azeri's seem to have sent in tanks, with a bit of top cover from drones, whilst the armenians shelled them from their fixed bases??

Didn't they role play this, with like team yankee, beforehand?

 

[Gordus]

.

And here I thought I was talking to an adult.

Ironic coming from a flamebaiter.

Anyway, this bickering is pointless, to quote a beloved genocidal movie character.

Let's return to topic.

 

[Chazman]

and a lot of these kills have been old T72 I think? So these were probably bought for what half a mil each maybe? Lots of T72's lying around in the 00's.

So as a propaganda item, I get it, but in straight $$ terms, it doesnt seem to make sense. Also I hope an Abrams would stand up to a large RC aircraft, with a hand grenade tied to it, doing about 200kph, a bit better than we have seen so far.

Also wonder how many they actually bought. I mean a better plan surely would be to saturate one area, with these, kill everything that moves, especially the fixed bases of Armenians, then send in the tanks. Azeri's seem to have sent in tanks, with a bit of top cover from drones, whilst the armenians shelled them from their fixed bases??

Didn't they role play this, with like team yankee, beforehand?

Depending on ability to elevate the gun, the sensors on an Abrams might allow it to shoot down a drone with it's 120mm gun, from a mile away.

 

[Dercius]

As per reports Stepanakert under shelling at the moment. Short lived cease fire. Usually it takes the thick headed a few kinetic reminders in order to abide by what was agreed. As usual in this cases this can be done by your enemy with some early christmas goodies.

 

[NebrHogger]

I'm getting a serious bend in my learning curve about drones. I figured they'd cost $250,000 tops - not a million. And spend a million to take out an old tank? Knowing little of current tactics, I thought firing ATGMs from a drone would be the A plan.

Then - if the other side is running up their score using kamikaze drones, I'd be all about finding out where their drones were stored and land a big SSM there... point first.

All of which is nothing more than armchair generalship... but still...

 

[Mike1976]

I agree with you on the doctrine use Thanamestolga, and the idea of trowing money gear and ordnance in exchange for enemy casualties in an atrition war that Armenia couldnt ever dream on wining.

The problem I do see, is that Azerbaijan, seem to have sustained some heavy casualties in engagements with the Armenians, that simply diluted the gains of embracing this doctrine.

IMHO it would have been better for Azerbaijan interests and treasure, to have engaged in a long attrition war against Armenia, making it unsustainable for them in the mid term run, by theowing their economy and whole country stability down into the gutter.

They seem to have decided to throw both the treasure and gadgets + the piles of corpses for very small gains.
Sure, that US, Russia, Turkey, France, UK, South Korea, Japan and any other advanced military forces can wear down an enemy with a small/less technologically advanced army. Seems that Azerbaijan was time constrained and that they threw precaution out of the window, sustaining casualties they shouldnt have incurred had they stuck with the doctrine.

The problem Azerbaijan faces is that although they have support from Turkey they do not have the political muscle to fight on indefinitely. At some point one of the big guys is going to come along and tell them this is where it stops PERIOD. Whether that's Russia, the US or China it will eventually happen. Russia has already called them for a meeting and "asked" them to agree to a cease fire. Slighting the Russians by violating the cease fire isn't going to do them any favours in the long run. I thought it was funny that after the Russians called for a meeting in Moscow they said they would think about going or not going. You're going to go if you know what's good for you.

the question is would you want to go into a war in a Abrams or a T90? - I think there is a really easy answer to that one

But this has to be considered within the Azerbaijani or Armenian defence networks. When people think of the combat performance of the Abrams it's not just the tank itself that contributes to this, but also the air power, artillery and air defences that back them up and at that point have likely spent days or even weeks depleting the enemy's ability to fight before the tanks make contact with the enemy. Also tactics. As Turkish use of Leopard 2's in Syria and Saudi Abrams in Yemen have shown they can be knocked out too fairly easily if used without supporting infantry and the crews do not care about silhouetting themselves on hilltops and other rookie mistakes. And that's against grade D opponents using mostly Warsaw Pact legacy weapons. Not the (semi) modern weapons both of these armies possess integrated into organized coordinating units.

 

[Chazman]

The problem Azerbaijan faces is that although they have support from Turkey they do not have the political muscle to fight on indefinitely. At some point one of the big guys is going to come along and tell them this is where it stops PERIOD. Whether that's Russia, the US or China it will eventually happen. Russia has already called them for a meeting and "asked" them to agree to a cease fire. Slighting the Russians by violating the cease fire isn't going to do them any favours in the long run. I thought it was funny that after the Russians called for a meeting in Moscow they said they would think about going or not going. You're going to go if you know what's good for you.



But this has to be considered within the Azerbaijani or Armenian defence networks. When people think of the combat performance of the Abrams it's not just the tank itself that contributes to this, but also the air power, artillery and air defences that back them up and at that point have likely spent days or even weeks depleting the enemy's ability to fight before the tanks make contact with the enemy. Also tactics. As Turkish use of Leopard 2's in Syria and Saudi Abrams in Yemen have shown they can be knocked out too fairly easily if used without supporting infantry and the crews do not care about silhouetting themselves on hilltops and other rookie mistakes. And that's against grade D opponents using mostly Warsaw Pact legacy weapons. Not the (semi) modern weapons both of these armies possess integrated into organized coordinating units.

It does have the potential to be a flash point for Russia, Turkey and Iran.

 

[morris]

the question is would you want to go into a war in a Abrams or a T90? - I think there is a really easy answer to that one

I prefer to watch it on big screen not too far away from my beer fridge.

 

[morris]

The Azeris have openly stated that they are not going to stick to the agreement, as implementing the ceasefire is "impossible":

Баграмян 26

🔥Баку заявил, что перемирие не вступило в силу Глава МИД Азербайджана заявил, что прекращение огня в Карабахе еще не началось из-за отсутствия условий для его реализации:ТАСС @Bagramyan26

t.me

(in Russian)

Both sides blame each other for violating the agreement but Azeris have more reasons to dislike it.

 

[morris]

It does have the potential to be a flash point for Russia, Turkey and Iran.

Could be a flash point for NATO via Turkey too.

 

[morris]

Ironic coming from a flamebaiter.

Anyway, this bickering is pointless, to quote a beloved genocidal movie character.

Let's return to topic.

Like if his opposite isn't but anyway good war is better then bad bickering or is it other way around.

 

[Flagg]

I'm getting a serious bend in my learning curve about drones. I figured they'd cost $250,000 tops - not a million. And spend a million to take out an old tank? Knowing little of current tactics, I thought firing ATGMs from a drone would be the A plan.

Then - if the other side is running up their score using kamikaze drones, I'd be all about finding out where their drones were stored and land a big SSM there... point first.

All of which is nothing more than armchair generalship... but still...

There’s a LOT of Turkish kinetic drone kit already on the market and coming on the market that will see price ppint s coming down.

ISIS/Yemeni use of modified COTS drones was concurrent to Turk(and others) developing higher end kinetic drones that are a military application of Moore’s Law providing price/performance that previously required 10x, 100x investment.

It’s a bit like 1973 and the combat introduction of AT-2 Sagger all over again.

But the key differences are the accessibility of 3D space and distributed application of Moore’s Law(Turkish defence industry innovation, rather than just traditional players).

In fact, the dominance of US and other defence industry players is a strong nudge for lower and middle power defence industry to innovation in new areas rather than legacy area.

 

[Mike1976]

Could be a flash point for NATO via Turkey too.

Not in NATO Charter territory and with Turkey's current "popularity" among EU and NATO members everyone is going to be turning a blind eye to any retaliatory strike on internationally recognized Turkish territory that might occur from Erdogan's interference in regional conflicts.

The idea of NATO is defending against an unprovoked attack. Not kicking Russia or anyone else in the nuts and then jumping back into your backyard yelling "Help!".

 

[morris]

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The Azerbaijani side is collecting its dead.

 

[morris]

Not in NATO Charter territory and with Turkey's current "popularity" among EU and NATO members everyone is going to be turning a blind eye to any retaliatory strike on internationally recognized Turkish territory that might occur from Erdogan's interference in regional conflicts.

I agree that it is unlikely but so is a flash point for Russia, Turkey and Iran.

 

[morris]

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They write that Ganja and Baku were shelled. Live broadcast of the Azeri channel from the scene: It looks like some buildings have collapsed, a bunch of debris.

Edit: not sure about Baku, very scatchy at the moment.

 

[morris]

BAKU, 11 October - Sputnik. The city of Ganja comes under fire from the territory of the Berd region of Armenia.
This is stated in the message on the official website of the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan.

Гянджа подверглась обстрелу с территории Армении

Министерство обороны Азербайджанской Республики сообщило об обстреле города Гянджа с территории Армении.

az.sputniknews.ru

https://mod.gov.az/az/news/gence-seheri-novbeti-defe-atese-tutulur-32881.html

Claim is not about Nagorno Karabah but Armenia itself, which means casus belli for war declaration against Armenia.