Photos Armenia v Azerbaijan
- Thread starter saiga
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new ottoman turk empire had northern cyprus,northern iraq,northern syria,northern libya,azerbaijanistan,some nk.will take somalia and afghanistan.and future will take xinjiang-uygurnistan from china!some land not turk race!
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Well, it's of some importance, but the source of the cutting edge tech and strategy on opposing side is more important, shifting the balance of power
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An überpro Polish journalist is staying in the conflict zone at the moment and he has revealed what REALLY happened.
First of all, the initial agreement did not involve Armenia and Azerbaijan, but was a purely bilateral agreement between Russia and Turkey. These two decided about how to solve the conflict without any Armenian or Azeri involvement.
Russia made a decision about sending peacekeepers to Artsakh without Armenia's and Azerbaijan's approval or knowledge BEFORE Armenia decided to sign the ceasefire. Do you remember the incident with the downed Russian Mi-24? It was part of that peacekeeping force that was heading Artsakh. Did you notice how Russia took Azeris' explanation when the latter said they did not expect any Russian forces in that particular area? Indeed, it was one of very few rare occasions when the Azeris were telling the truth, so they really did not know about any agreement over their heads. Compare Russia's reaction when the Suka was downed over Turkey. Russians are specific people who don't take any sh1t. This time, for a change, they accepted the Azeri explanation and did not show any anger.
Artsakh was kicked in the balls but not defeated. Contrary to what some people wanted us to believe, the Azeris did not take Sushi and they barely took any territory in the last seven days. There were different gossips spread by the Armenians and the Russians who were opponents of the current Armenian government in order to accuse the latter of treason and bring it down.
So, the journalist made a few key points regarding the consequences of the "agreement":
1) Russia takes over full control over Armenia (makes the latter totally dependent of Russia), while Artsah becomes Russia's protectorate like Abkhasia or South Ossetia. Russia brings down the current Armenian government, as it's blamed for the "defeat". The current pro-Western Armenian government is to be brought down and a new pro-Russian one is to be chosen. At the same time, Russia keeps her position of a "neutral mediator" and, because Armenia was not attacked, nobody can blame Russia for not being involved in the conflict.
2) Turkey makes Azerbaijan totally dependent and divides Southern Caucasus between itself and Russia.
3) The West loses any influence in Southern Caucasus and discredits itself by taking no action.
4) Armenia loses its control over Artsakh and is to become fully dependent of Russia. By keeping the peacekeeping forces in Artsakh, Russia will be able to make Armenia fully dependent and influence Armenia's internal politics. Anti-Russian protests are expected in Armenia.
5) Azerbaijan was able to get almost all the taken territory negotiating with Armenia before the war started. The latter proposed Azerbaijan to recognise Artsakh as an independent state, offering the entire buffer zone taken from Azerbaijan in the 90s in return. In the meantime, it looks like there will be no Azeri administration in Artsakh. It will be controlled by Russia who will also control the strategic road between Armenia and Artsakh. If the Azeris come to their senses and realise they had been phucked over by Russia and Turkey, Aliyev will be in a deep sh1t. He made his countrymen think that Armenia capitulated, so Azerbaijan will be able to take control over Artsakh, while it's not going to happen. It's likely he will be brought down by the Turks in the future.
In Polish:
Rozejm w Górskim Karabachu to nowy układ rosyjsko-turecki [Relacja z Erywania]
Podpisane w nocy z 9 na 10 listopada porozumienie w sprawie rozejmu w Górskim Karabachu (Arcachu) to ogromny sukces Rosji, a w pewnym sensie również Turcji. Przegraną jest Armenia i paradoksalnie również Azerbejdżan. Choć szczegóły nie są znane to wiadomo, że 2 tys. żołnierzy rosyjskich weszło...
www.defence24.pl
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So I called it a month ago?
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its so gauche, to reply to ones own posts.....
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Congratulation Azerbaijan.. God will be with the oppressed one not the ignorance one... the victory only time will tell.. Azerbaijan waited for 30 years for this historic triumph to be unfold.. Im happy with Azerbaijan.. let us pray the oppressed get their victory when time come.. whether in America, in Middle East, Europe and Asia..
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i can see a same trend of instability that happened in Ukraine when the govt rely on Russia and the people want to rely on EC.. hope is not go that path..Armenian decided to rely on EC
View attachment 258412
View attachment 258411
That's made Azeries very happy.
View attachment 258413
So Armenians blame EC now
?? In Yerevan, the office of Radio Liberty, the main pro-government propaganda mouthpiece, was attacked.
@Caucasian_bureau
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Actually only some soros foundation trained activists wanted to rely on EC and now they are blamed by people for what has happened.
The office of the Soros Foundation was destroyed in Yerevan.
From what little I could figure out from videos and written reports, I can extrapolate the following with relative certainty:
1. Armenians prepared for a piecemeal positional defence in the mountains and hills. They expected small-scale attacks followed by small-scale counter-attacks to retrieve lost ground. It worked in the North, but in the South, the Azeris managed a breakthrough and massed their forces, relatively safe from artillery bombardment, as Armenian artillery was constantly destroyed by drone warfare.
2. Armenian Air Defence failed big time, and heads should roll. In 1999, Serbia downed dozens of drones far more advanced than Baryaktar, with far inferior tools, while also being pounded by proper aviation, something the Azeris were mostly reluctant to commit. Also, I never once saw proper camouflage. Not so much as camo netting to protect artillery and AA units.
3. While undoubtedly brave to the point of lunacy (the phrase 'heroes fight like Armenians' is not that big of a stretch), for every video I saw where the Armenians were operating calmly under artillery fire, returning fire and passing ammunition, I saw two where they were shooting inshallah style and running about like headless chicken. And it's not like they're the FSA, they know better. It was a failure of discipline and their junior officers and sergeants.
4. No foxholes or block-posts, only big, F***-off trenches made by bulldozers, and very few reserve positions.
5. They underestimated their enemy, big-time. When visiting certain English-language Armenian forums, there is a lot of hubris to be had. Phrases such as 'azeribaboons' and discussions about how they should take back Nakhchevan all the way back in 2016, along with a prevalent attitude of Azeris being cowards are painful to read. Now, that could have been the infamous ballsiness of the diaspora, also very prevalent in the Balkans, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they were common views among the populace, and worse, the military.
6. As others already noted, Armenia did not commit fully. Maybe they thought it wasn't necessary, maybe they thought Turkey would attack Armenia proper, I don't know. But it should have been evident that the Artsakh Defence Army, even if reinforced, cannot deal against what was attacking it.
7. While I doubt the Azeris will ever release the full list of their causalities, I expect them to be at least twice as high as those of the Armenians. They absorbed them and kept pushing, however, something they weren't able to do before.
8. Wherever there were breakthroughs, we saw Azeri T-90s, Matadors, brand new Turkish body armour, and Special Forces. The Romanian AK-wielding conscripts with steel helmets were mostly filmed a bit further back, being ferried by trucks. That leads me to believe that the Azeris adopted the Croat-style strategy of "fix the enemy in place with conscripts and reservists, find a weak spot, pour in elite units). That only works with ample numerical superiority though, something they achieved due to the non-commitment of Armenia.
To summarize, the Armenians are not invincible mountain warriors, Azeris are not incompetent cowards, high-tech warfare does not mean that bloody infantry slogs are not on the menu anymore, and some nations just can't get a break. May God rest the souls of the dead on both sides, especially the ungodly number of 20 and 19 year-olds, and may their uniform-wearing, fist-waving politicians rot in Hell.
1. Armenians prepared for a piecemeal positional defence in the mountains and hills. They expected small-scale attacks followed by small-scale counter-attacks to retrieve lost ground. It worked in the North, but in the South, the Azeris managed a breakthrough and massed their forces, relatively safe from artillery bombardment, as Armenian artillery was constantly destroyed by drone warfare.
2. Armenian Air Defence failed big time, and heads should roll. In 1999, Serbia downed dozens of drones far more advanced than Baryaktar, with far inferior tools, while also being pounded by proper aviation, something the Azeris were mostly reluctant to commit. Also, I never once saw proper camouflage. Not so much as camo netting to protect artillery and AA units.
3. While undoubtedly brave to the point of lunacy (the phrase 'heroes fight like Armenians' is not that big of a stretch), for every video I saw where the Armenians were operating calmly under artillery fire, returning fire and passing ammunition, I saw two where they were shooting inshallah style and running about like headless chicken. And it's not like they're the FSA, they know better. It was a failure of discipline and their junior officers and sergeants.
4. No foxholes or block-posts, only big, F***-off trenches made by bulldozers, and very few reserve positions.
5. They underestimated their enemy, big-time. When visiting certain English-language Armenian forums, there is a lot of hubris to be had. Phrases such as 'azeribaboons' and discussions about how they should take back Nakhchevan all the way back in 2016, along with a prevalent attitude of Azeris being cowards are painful to read. Now, that could have been the infamous ballsiness of the diaspora, also very prevalent in the Balkans, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they were common views among the populace, and worse, the military.
6. As others already noted, Armenia did not commit fully. Maybe they thought it wasn't necessary, maybe they thought Turkey would attack Armenia proper, I don't know. But it should have been evident that the Artsakh Defence Army, even if reinforced, cannot deal against what was attacking it.
7. While I doubt the Azeris will ever release the full list of their causalities, I expect them to be at least twice as high as those of the Armenians. They absorbed them and kept pushing, however, something they weren't able to do before.
8. Wherever there were breakthroughs, we saw Azeri T-90s, Matadors, brand new Turkish body armour, and Special Forces. The Romanian AK-wielding conscripts with steel helmets were mostly filmed a bit further back, being ferried by trucks. That leads me to believe that the Azeris adopted the Croat-style strategy of "fix the enemy in place with conscripts and reservists, find a weak spot, pour in elite units). That only works with ample numerical superiority though, something they achieved due to the non-commitment of Armenia.
To summarize, the Armenians are not invincible mountain warriors, Azeris are not incompetent cowards, high-tech warfare does not mean that bloody infantry slogs are not on the menu anymore, and some nations just can't get a break. May God rest the souls of the dead on both sides, especially the ungodly number of 20 and 19 year-olds, and may their uniform-wearing, fist-waving politicians rot in Hell.
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Υou forgot Madagascar, beautiful flora and fauna.
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How about the intelligence fail , these kind of Azeri preparations take time, the same time could be used constructively by the Armenian side.
As to the No 8, with the Croat analogy, i am wondering, not stating, if most likely as a Muslim army having Turkish advisers, they adopted the known model of engaging (thus sacrificing) their most inexperienced troops in the beginning so to wear out the Armenians before they throw their best units, something that happened in the past in Cyprus, with with Mujaheddin fighters in Bosnia, but also today with the use of the Jihadi mercs.
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Azerbaijan won the war with Turkish support first I have to express that people keep repeating 2 things first, the Syrian militants issue.. Why are you guys surprised that there are mercenaries? For ex in Serbian Kosovan war there were hundres of Greek mercenaries & Greek intelligence officers on serbian side while NATO organizing an operation against them. Mercenaries participate in every war and nobody admits that there are mercenary organizations in their sides. Turkey training Syrian FSA & Turkmens almost a decade now. Surely we use them in Libya or in Azerbaijani war. We provide Azeris with AWACS, satellite images, drones air operations only it was a min support. Armenians had a army just for Karabakh. Hunderds of tanks hunderds of modern ATGMS Dozens of Shilkas and GEOGRAPHY on their side. Its often called " mountainous Republic of artaskh " Armenian war doctrine trusted the Russians so much they thought rondom shootings gonna happen & they estimated 2 days conflict gonna occur but we Turks send doctorine staff group with a support brigade, 2-4 f16s 2 T129 helicopters in end of August we prepared them for war with a training camouflage. Remember before the operation started, there was a Russian Caucasian war games exercises. I think nato and the pentagon gave the green light to this operation also. Azerbaijanis got what they wanted they gain all provinces what they lost in 90s and villages with major Armenian population inc stepenakert will be controlled by Russians. Also Nahçivan region will connect with main land Azerbaijan. Turkey will lift embargo against Armenia lasting since 1992. I think Iran and the Armenian diaspora are the only losers of war now. Let's see how 32 million Azeris inside Iran riot against molla regime with full Turkish, Azerbaijani, Israeli and American support.
One thing is certain, guys, Iranian weapons are more older and more demodern than Armenians. They have only "faith" which ( my own opinion ) is un effective. Do you guys understand now why Israel is giving kamikaze drones to Azerbaijan ..
One thing is certain, guys, Iranian weapons are more older and more demodern than Armenians. They have only "faith" which ( my own opinion ) is un effective. Do you guys understand now why Israel is giving kamikaze drones to Azerbaijan ..
True, especially considering that the previous scrap with the Azeris happened in July, I think. Although, since that Azeri offensive accomplished little, it might have lulled the Armenians into a false sense of security.
I don't know a lot about the Cyprus conflict, other than the Turks being materially superior in every respect, and the "mother country" contributing precious little to the struggle of Greek Cypriots. In those respects, the two conflicts are similar.
In Bosnia, however, foreign Mujaheddin were not numerous enough to be used as cannon fodder, and the local ones, brigades carrying the honorific 'Muslim' were crack units used to punch holes and exploit breakthroughs. In Artsakh, Idlib mercenaries/Mujaheddin were dressed in Azerbaijan Border Guards uniforms and presumably put under their command and very much fed to the meat grinder. That coincides with the Turkish tactic in Syria. Send the local yobs forward to get blown up and discover enemy positions, then pound them with air assets, artillery and elite troops.
Bosnian Muslims had little armour and artillery, exclusively on Corps level and battalion-sized. In 9 out of 10 times, their attacks would fail with heavy casualties. But in that one instance, they would capture a decent amount of ground, mostly due to their doggedness and bravery (hey, you gotta give credit where credit's due), also with high casualties. When working with the Croats, who had a decent amount of heavy equipment, they achieved advances similar to those seen in Artsakh.
The Azeris, however, had a lot of firepower on hand, while fighting on similar terrain (the Bosnian mountains being way more covered with forests), and with similar persistence and numerical superiority that the Bosnian government army had. The result was a forgone conclusion.
If it wasn't for the Dayton Accords, barring direct Yugoslav intervention (itself with a set of possible nasty consequences attached) Banja Luka would have probably fallen in '95. Similar with the current Armenian-Azeri settlement and Stepanakert. It would have been bloody beyond belief, and it is good that it has been avoided. The key difference being that the Artsakh Defence Army is to be disbanded, while the Army of Republika Srpska existed for another decade, and its remnants still compose a full third of the Armed Forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Sorry for the rant, it's just that I never thought about parallels between Bosnia and this conflict before you brought it up.
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Russian peacekeeper forces positions in NKR.
Two infantry batallions (in south and north) and a number of observation posts.
Two infantry batallions (in south and north) and a number of observation posts.
No one is particularly surprised, it's just the constant denying by the Azerbaijani government that is annoying.
Greeks were in Bosnia, not Kosovo. And they were not mercenaries, as they weren't getting paid, whereas the Toyota crew from Idlib is getting 2,000 dollars a month, according to whistle blowers in their ranks.
Again, widely known, and annoyingly denied by Turks and Azeris.
That would not be smart, though I wouldn't put it past Erdogan and Alyiev.
If I'm getting what you're saying correctly, you're expecting an Azeri insurgency in Iran with covert and overt support from Azerbaijan and Turkey? That would end badly for the Iranian Azeri community (who are, from what I understand, mostly loyal Iranian citizens) and for Azerbaijan itself, if it got involved directly.
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No rant taken, i am not saying it was similar conflicts , i am saying that the cannon fodder doctrine existed also in Bosnia.
When it comes to the Mujaheddin in Bosnia, mostly is a light infantry story, there were using a lot of drugs to stay sharp, actually it was an Iranian made ''cocktail. Most of the characters brought in by the Turks to fight in Karabakh also used a lot of substances. Some of the terrorists that did the terror attacks in France were also under the influence of drugs if you check it.
Well, to be perfectly honest, in a situation where I'm expected to charge up a forested hill with bunkers and machine-gun nests, and the space directly in front of it meticulously mapped for artillery, i wouldn't mind an Iranian cocktail, or even just a few lines of speed.
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If you are incapable of understanding the whole picture, I'll gladly help you.
This war can be considered an Azeri tactical victory at best, but it's not a strategic victory by any means.
Both Armenia and Azerbaijan lost it, while the true winners are Russia and Turkey.
Artsakh has a population of 150,000 people, including 55,000 who live in Stepanakert. It's the biggest city, the next is Shusha with a population of 24-25,000, while there are not any other towns which population exceeds 5000. The Azeris were bragging about taking "strategic towns and cities", that were known as such purely for sh1ts and giggles, while these "towns'" and "cities'" population was 2000-4000 people.
The Azeris either were granted or took the buffer zone which was not part of N-K, while their progress or the concessions in N-K itself was very small.
The vast majority of its territory will be administered by Russia which is a big fail on the Azeri side. Russia can keep it for the next 100 or 300 years, because why not? Such a scenario will make Russia influence internal politics both in Armenia and Azerbaijan, playing the game that suits Russia.
The perspective of getting the whole of N-K cannot be any further right now. Azerbaijan has lost its war at the strategic level, as it won't be able to take the core of the N-K, by rebuilding its army and starting hostilities every 3-5 years. This time, it would have to deal with Russia in order to take something more, so it's not going to happen.
Speaking of Artsakh, how many men can a semi-state of 150,000 people have? 70,000 or less? How many of them could be children and elderly who could not fight? 25-30,000? It gives you 40-45,000 men who were capable of fighting. If you bear in mind the Artsakh Army numbered 20,000 soldiers, they put a massive effort in defending their country and did everything they could to do it.
As some of you correctly presumed, Armenia was afraid of getting more involved due to a possible attack from the Turkish territory. For the same reason, Ukrainians were very slow with getting their sh1t together in 2014 when they tried deploying the police and and Interior Ministry units against pro-Russian separatists in Donbas. They thought that having been too harsh would have prompted a Russian intervention. When they finally decided to involve the army, it was too late.
As I said above, the ceasefire was forced upon Armenia and Azerbaijan by Russia and Turkey. Giving Azerbaijan access to Nakhchevan is an outright betrayal of Armenia by Russia. The things did not have to go THAT far.
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In that case you need ''Khat''
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