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I foresee a continued march toward an idiocracy-type dystopia where an apathetic citizenry will continue to give up rights and privileges because of (insert current crisis). What do you think?
Other Post Do you think society will get better this decade?
- Thread starter HisRoyalHighness
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Well, over here I have seen a society where the companies arent talking about profits but retaining their people and helping out the community and individuals try and do their shares to help out no matter how small. You see other provinces raising funds to help out the government and farmers giving their produce for free. We got new sets of heroes and they are better than basketball stars.
The owner of my Airline is seen as ruthless and a cold tycoon. Yet now that he has all the reasons to cut costs and break contracts, the company decided to use all its resources to not lay off people. We didnt even stop the training of newer pilots and even reassured them. We got our pay delayed and I have never seen or heard one pilot, in an airline where everybody bitches, complain and understand what was happening.
I read somewhere, not sure if its true, but there was a US Army officer that adviced his men in the Korean War that when your lines is about to be overwhelmed, go to a US Marines unit as those guys hunker down and not lose their S**t and break ranks. So far my society is not breaking ranks, and in the end I think my society will be better for it. Compared to its old self.
The owner of my Airline is seen as ruthless and a cold tycoon. Yet now that he has all the reasons to cut costs and break contracts, the company decided to use all its resources to not lay off people. We didnt even stop the training of newer pilots and even reassured them. We got our pay delayed and I have never seen or heard one pilot, in an airline where everybody bitches, complain and understand what was happening.
I read somewhere, not sure if its true, but there was a US Army officer that adviced his men in the Korean War that when your lines is about to be overwhelmed, go to a US Marines unit as those guys hunker down and not lose their S**t and break ranks. So far my society is not breaking ranks, and in the end I think my society will be better for it. Compared to its old self.
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? Brace yerselfes lads and lasses, for this will be a long one.
The way I see it, the Covid-19 pandemic is actually the first crisis since the end of the Cold War that by and large warrants the restrictions that have been imposed on citizens of democratic nations.
I would oppose them had I to have the faintest presentiment they could be extended beyond a justifiable, short time – but that's not going to happen. No sizable political force in the West can have an interest in doing that and expect to survive.
As far as I'm concerned though, the rights of one man end where he begins to infringe upon the rights of another. If my refusal to restrict my free movement has (due to the dissemination of a dangerous disease) the potential to threaten the health of my fellow citizens even after they've taken proportionate precautions to protect themselves, I see it as my duty to accept restrictions at least till the second they're no longer urgently necessary.
This I hold particularly true when the aforesaid restrictions pose more of a nuisance than a grave threat to my freedom, as I do not believe the slippery slope theory – of which I'm usually a fierce defender – applies here. The only precedent that's been created is that a global pandemic of considerable magnitude may warrant a restriction of individual freedoms.
The ordinary abscence of conditions capable of killing 240,000 people in six weeks and threatening to collapse the health system to the grave detriment of all should forestall any notion of an extension or reintroduction of comparable restrictions.
I'm acutely aware of the great many inept scientists and political activists in teacher's gowns out there, yet this group's size and impact is overstated (even though both are still too extensive for my liking). Most people who soldier through years of learning don't intend to be crappy at their job or to pervert the truth – much like, say, professional boxers haven't endured all those hours in the gym only to hide brass knuckles in their gloves.
At any rate, if a proof the methodology of which is in itself proven verifies a statement, then every discussion will inevitably culminate in a moment where both sides have to acknowledge the factuality of a fact, and that from truth there can only follow truth.
If someone denies this – if they deny truths so foundational they'd be acknowledged instinctively by most people –, they refuse to accept the only objective basis for two people to reach an agreement. In other words, they reject the very basis of a democracy.
We can debate all day and night what follows from the fact that two plus two equals four. But if we can't agree that two plus two equals four, there's virtually no room for us to coexist without conflict. We'll just be cowering in our trenches and bombard each other to the point society resembles Verdun 1917.
Mind you, we've arrived at a point where truths can be denied strenuously not only by dumb fᴜcks who dwell in their mothers' basements and believe the earth is flat due to their inability to cope with the complexity of the world, but also by journalists, lawmakers and – yes! – some scientists. And even those aware of the problem don't dare to see it as a social rather than a political subject.
You'll spend quite some time looking for a leftie ready to acknowledge anti-vaxxers are no better than creationists, or for a right-winger who agrees there's no qualitative difference between climate change denial and the idiotic belief in 71 genders.
Indeed, we're already at a point where women's studies "scientists" may claim with impunity logic is but a "artificial construct" devised by the white patriarchy to oppress women and ethnic minorities. Yes, they argue that logic doesn't exist, i.e. that effects aren't linked to their causes. A most staggering form of denial of reality, as it includes the refusal to believe one's own five senses.
This conflict not only sits at the heart of almost every major political issue, I think, but is also the reason why the polarisation of Western societies spirals out of control: It's actually nigh-impossible (except for the most patient of minds) to engage in discourse with people who refuse to accept truths which normally need no explaining and are therefore hard to explain.
That is why I'd rank the growing hostility towards science above political correctness, overzealous governments or even above the dangerous impact of the "social" media and the 24-hours news cycle on society (even though I deem them incredibly destructive). All these issues are influenced and compounded by the refusal of individuals to acknowledge simple truths.
So far, they're the minority. But they could easily become a majority, and I don't think I'd want to live in their world.
Just to get one thing out of the way first – I've been hearing this a lot with regard to the ongoing pandemic. I'd beg to differ if indeed that's what you were thinking of.
The way I see it, the Covid-19 pandemic is actually the first crisis since the end of the Cold War that by and large warrants the restrictions that have been imposed on citizens of democratic nations.
I would oppose them had I to have the faintest presentiment they could be extended beyond a justifiable, short time – but that's not going to happen. No sizable political force in the West can have an interest in doing that and expect to survive.
As far as I'm concerned though, the rights of one man end where he begins to infringe upon the rights of another. If my refusal to restrict my free movement has (due to the dissemination of a dangerous disease) the potential to threaten the health of my fellow citizens even after they've taken proportionate precautions to protect themselves, I see it as my duty to accept restrictions at least till the second they're no longer urgently necessary.
This I hold particularly true when the aforesaid restrictions pose more of a nuisance than a grave threat to my freedom, as I do not believe the slippery slope theory – of which I'm usually a fierce defender – applies here. The only precedent that's been created is that a global pandemic of considerable magnitude may warrant a restriction of individual freedoms.
The ordinary abscence of conditions capable of killing 240,000 people in six weeks and threatening to collapse the health system to the grave detriment of all should forestall any notion of an extension or reintroduction of comparable restrictions.
Going forward, the biggest threat to our societies which I'm able to identify is the growing hostility towards science. Which, I guess, is a form of apathy.
I'm acutely aware of the great many inept scientists and political activists in teacher's gowns out there, yet this group's size and impact is overstated (even though both are still too extensive for my liking). Most people who soldier through years of learning don't intend to be crappy at their job or to pervert the truth – much like, say, professional boxers haven't endured all those hours in the gym only to hide brass knuckles in their gloves.
At any rate, if a proof the methodology of which is in itself proven verifies a statement, then every discussion will inevitably culminate in a moment where both sides have to acknowledge the factuality of a fact, and that from truth there can only follow truth.
If someone denies this – if they deny truths so foundational they'd be acknowledged instinctively by most people –, they refuse to accept the only objective basis for two people to reach an agreement. In other words, they reject the very basis of a democracy.
We can debate all day and night what follows from the fact that two plus two equals four. But if we can't agree that two plus two equals four, there's virtually no room for us to coexist without conflict. We'll just be cowering in our trenches and bombard each other to the point society resembles Verdun 1917.
Mind you, we've arrived at a point where truths can be denied strenuously not only by dumb fᴜcks who dwell in their mothers' basements and believe the earth is flat due to their inability to cope with the complexity of the world, but also by journalists, lawmakers and – yes! – some scientists. And even those aware of the problem don't dare to see it as a social rather than a political subject.
You'll spend quite some time looking for a leftie ready to acknowledge anti-vaxxers are no better than creationists, or for a right-winger who agrees there's no qualitative difference between climate change denial and the idiotic belief in 71 genders.
Indeed, we're already at a point where women's studies "scientists" may claim with impunity logic is but a "artificial construct" devised by the white patriarchy to oppress women and ethnic minorities. Yes, they argue that logic doesn't exist, i.e. that effects aren't linked to their causes. A most staggering form of denial of reality, as it includes the refusal to believe one's own five senses.
This conflict not only sits at the heart of almost every major political issue, I think, but is also the reason why the polarisation of Western societies spirals out of control: It's actually nigh-impossible (except for the most patient of minds) to engage in discourse with people who refuse to accept truths which normally need no explaining and are therefore hard to explain.
That is why I'd rank the growing hostility towards science above political correctness, overzealous governments or even above the dangerous impact of the "social" media and the 24-hours news cycle on society (even though I deem them incredibly destructive). All these issues are influenced and compounded by the refusal of individuals to acknowledge simple truths.
So far, they're the minority. But they could easily become a majority, and I don't think I'd want to live in their world.
The son of a dying man had to take emergency court action against health authorities so he could spend one last day with his terminally ill father.
He won.
There had been 24 requests to visit a relative dying or close to dying as of April 30, a spokesperson for the prime minister said.
None of those requests have been granted
He won.
There had been 24 requests to visit a relative dying or close to dying as of April 30, a spokesperson for the prime minister said.
None of those requests have been granted
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I really appreciate the civil and nuanced responses folks.
JungleJim, I am happy your society can band together to overcome this pandemic. My society is being torn in two because of political polarization injected with corporate technological surveillance.
Muck, I actually would agree but my country is literally splitting itself for political gotcha points and being massive hypocrites. For example, the mayor of Chicago argued that she should be allowed to get hair cuts at salons because she is in front of the cameras all the time while demanding people stay inside under threat of arrest. She even walked around the streets WITHOUT a mask telling the peasants to GTFO with the peasants telling her to piss off. There’s also hypocrisy among lockdown protesters who don’t wear masks while in large crowds. Why can’t people exercise caution or even follow their common sense or rules? Why can’t everyone just shut their stupid faces and unify under at least ONE plan. The rest of your post is intriguing and I want to come back to it later.
Primer, stories like that keep draining my faith in humanity.
Morris, true but what pandemic can we compare this one to given how interconnected the world is?
JungleJim, I am happy your society can band together to overcome this pandemic. My society is being torn in two because of political polarization injected with corporate technological surveillance.
Muck, I actually would agree but my country is literally splitting itself for political gotcha points and being massive hypocrites. For example, the mayor of Chicago argued that she should be allowed to get hair cuts at salons because she is in front of the cameras all the time while demanding people stay inside under threat of arrest. She even walked around the streets WITHOUT a mask telling the peasants to GTFO with the peasants telling her to piss off. There’s also hypocrisy among lockdown protesters who don’t wear masks while in large crowds. Why can’t people exercise caution or even follow their common sense or rules? Why can’t everyone just shut their stupid faces and unify under at least ONE plan. The rest of your post is intriguing and I want to come back to it later.
Primer, stories like that keep draining my faith in humanity.
Morris, true but what pandemic can we compare this one to given how interconnected the world is?
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Hope we learn. The local health system has been patently anti initiative. Perfectly fitting into the topic the earlier post is just one facet of their ignorance.
If NZ had had a higher rate, mayhem due to ill preparedness was predicted and hence the paranoid extremes that NZ had to endure in the lock down. Australia
With haircuts, open shops, schools, fast food has fared no differently on the whole.
If NZ had had a higher rate, mayhem due to ill preparedness was predicted and hence the paranoid extremes that NZ had to endure in the lock down. Australia
With haircuts, open shops, schools, fast food has fared no differently on the whole.
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I visited the hospital to see someone gravely I'll . Only one was allowed, but I edited the doctors note allowing another. My bother separately snuck in also.
They have these rules but they are only drafted by people who are in a building in another city who have never been to the place they are making rules for. Thankfully people who work are largely rational humans.
They have these rules but they are only drafted by people who are in a building in another city who have never been to the place they are making rules for. Thankfully people who work are largely rational humans.
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There's a global mistrust of authority wether politics, news, or science.
Everyone thinks that these people are out to get them, and think they know better because anyone can post anything these days and access large audiences. The source is'nt important, people look for info that fits their views.
People are retreating mentally to an ever smaller community of thought and rules. They cannot accept being challenged in their way of life, and choose comfort. Working with others, compromising, and respect becomes ever more difficult.
Everything is a conspiracy, everything is a lie. And this sick thought crosses all spectrums of the political board.
Everyone thinks that these people are out to get them, and think they know better because anyone can post anything these days and access large audiences. The source is'nt important, people look for info that fits their views.
People are retreating mentally to an ever smaller community of thought and rules. They cannot accept being challenged in their way of life, and choose comfort. Working with others, compromising, and respect becomes ever more difficult.
Everything is a conspiracy, everything is a lie. And this sick thought crosses all spectrums of the political board.
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I’m on record very early on saying I think people are far more likely to lose their jobs and their investments/savings than their lives.
That’s holding up.
Unfortunately, if energy prices go too low for too long, super bad things will happen.
The periphery of OPEC, high cost producers will start moving the needle towards Mad Max, since so much of their budgets go towards food/life support.
Iran/Russia will be in trouble due to massive reliance on oil exports. And they will likely cause trouble...such as kneecapping other producers lacking superpower sugar daddies.
Venezuela is circling the gurgler, now with even less export earnings.
Which means that parasite Cuba will be starving like it’s 1991 all over again.
Saudi Arabia will likely go complete full retard digital authoritarian and become besties with China, because only China will accept Sri Lanka or Khmer Rouge level decisive slaughter.
I wrote a thing that got published about it:
In short, the world is more likely to get uglier than better for many.
FVEY+Singapore and Scandinavia will likely continue to be the best places to ride it out.
That’s holding up.
Unfortunately, if energy prices go too low for too long, super bad things will happen.
The periphery of OPEC, high cost producers will start moving the needle towards Mad Max, since so much of their budgets go towards food/life support.
Iran/Russia will be in trouble due to massive reliance on oil exports. And they will likely cause trouble...such as kneecapping other producers lacking superpower sugar daddies.
Venezuela is circling the gurgler, now with even less export earnings.
Which means that parasite Cuba will be starving like it’s 1991 all over again.
Saudi Arabia will likely go complete full retard digital authoritarian and become besties with China, because only China will accept Sri Lanka or Khmer Rouge level decisive slaughter.
I wrote a thing that got published about it:
https://madsciblog.tradoc.army.mil/223-contagion-covid-19s-impact-on-operational-environment-part-1/
In short, the world is more likely to get uglier than better for many.
FVEY+Singapore and Scandinavia will likely continue to be the best places to ride it out.
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You society isnt broken apart, your society is filled with sane people who are actually doing what needs to be done. I actually have more faith in your societies than most of you. What is happening I noticed everytime I visit in the US (I'm using the US as I have never seen it in full blown effort like it is over there) is that you are bombarded by fear and threats in all side. So much so that you dont even look outside your your world unless it comes knocking on your door and it hits you by surprise.
Your politics are vitriol in all sides, the name calling is non stop and the hate machine is well fed by ignorance and hatred. You are all locked up in your circles and anybody pout of it, is a threat, wrong and or needs to be destroyed.
If you get above the noise you can see that there are a lot more good happening in your societies than there is bad.
Who cares about the lady in Chicago? let the people in Chicago deal with them, who cares about the governor in Texas, unless you are from that state it is not your problem. China is a communist, then why is that your problem? When you disconnect from the poison that is American politics you will have a clearer view. Then you will see who or what the clear and present dangers is, and it is in front of you guys and Muck has been posting excel sheets of it every god damned day.
This contagion is killing more American civilians per day than the entirety of WW2.
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People are versatile, I’m afraid.
I have few hopes that society will be better off during this decade than it was in the last one or two decades ago.
Even though major incidents like 9/11, the Covid-19 or wars/Arab spring have an impact on pretty much the whole world, we are at an eerie age of growing selfishness and sense of entitlements.
Politicians here and there are having their little power abuse whether through parliaments or executive orders and pushing for more restrictive laws, freedom as we knew it (to a degree) in the 80s/90s is slowly falling apart, virus or not.
I’m not thrilled or optimistic about times to come, politics has rarely been so divisive too, and it’s more than common to lose a friend, ruin a friendship or a relationship over a different opinion.
I have few hopes that society will be better off during this decade than it was in the last one or two decades ago.
Even though major incidents like 9/11, the Covid-19 or wars/Arab spring have an impact on pretty much the whole world, we are at an eerie age of growing selfishness and sense of entitlements.
Politicians here and there are having their little power abuse whether through parliaments or executive orders and pushing for more restrictive laws, freedom as we knew it (to a degree) in the 80s/90s is slowly falling apart, virus or not.
I’m not thrilled or optimistic about times to come, politics has rarely been so divisive too, and it’s more than common to lose a friend, ruin a friendship or a relationship over a different opinion.
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Politicians have been abusing their powers since time immemorial, its nothing new and its here to stay. I think compared to people over here, you guys have far more trust with your institutions. So when we get a crisis like this, and shows that "modern" countries have dumbfuck idiots running your insitutions like ours, you guys feel like the world is about to end... while on our side e are pleasantly more suprised that we actually have a government that works.
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Exactly. And what you've described there is, I think, a negative side-effect of the individualism inherent to the Judeo-Christian culture in general and brought to the boil here in the West in particular.
Which must not be understood as Christianity-bashing on my part, by the way. The following is an amateurishly philosophical examination of a problem, not a declaration of approval or disapproval.
As far as the philosophy goes, I'd wholeheartedly recommend as reading Jordan Peterson's 'Maps of Meaning' wherein the formidable author explains how the (waning?) worldly supremacy of the Judeo-Christian cultural circle is (amongst other things) owed to the cultural consequences of the Bible's notion that God created man in his image.
If you go with Peterson, it's no accident the age of enlightment – the first known attempt in human history to detail a world that could explain itself – took place where it did: in the West. A society whose members get to consider themselves as made in the image of God must produce men who are, effectively, their own gods. Obviously, that would lay it upon man to explore the meaning of life himself.
If man is a metaphorical god to himself, he becomes free from the shackles of subservience to the authority of government and religion. The downside of this freedom is that man now stands alone.
If you talk to East Germans old enough to remember what life under Communist rule was like – remember that almost sixty years of terror wreaked by fascists and communists alike converted East Germany into the most atheist region of the world –, the nostalgic ones will always tell you: There was more "warmth" and a sense of purpose and direction.
You won't be surprised to hear the current shutdown is more popular with East Germans than West Germans.
Does this mean that broad with her "social distancing = communism"-poster whose picture @berkut76 recently posted got it right? Obviously, the concept itself hasn't got anything to do with communism (nor any ideology for that matter). But it is true that some cultures and ideologies have an easier time arranging themselves with restrictions, and they've all got one thing in common: They're less individualistic.
But again, there's a downside. If you don't want to trust the media, the government or even scientists – who, unlike you, spent years delving into a matter you have little knowledge about –, it is now on you to come up with your own answer, your own strategies. Which can be a tremendous challenge particularly during a crisis such as this.
And what are you likely to do? Get your own degree in virology, for example? Of course not. Why would'cha? There's always a Youtube video in reach recorded by some hack who'll answer all your questions in five minutes, and whose understanding attitude will make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Simply speaking, individualism brings with it the perception it is your job to keep an eye on everything and everyone, and to know everything in order to navigate the world. But what if the process of navigation exceeds the limits of your intellectual faculties? Well, you'll become irritated and susceptible to wanting to make do with any old garbage. And much like some couch potato isn't going to seek the company of a chiselled jock (unless they fancy being put down), you'll stick to those who share your thoughts and your frustation.
What concerns me the most about all those conspiracy theorists and political quacks is their refusal to even trust in their own senses, though. Even a child will trust its own eyes that there's no monster under its bed if a parent takes it by its little hand and they look together. But those freaks won't even accept the very simple observations and deductions they should all be able to make on their own.
If you'll allow me to condescend to you, I'd suggest the proof of what I just wrote is in the degree of emotional investment of these people. The next time you see a flat earther, just ask them: Imagine you decided to just roll with it and believe those who assure you the earth is, in fact, not flat, what would change for you? Why does it matter?
Because of course it doesn't bloody matter. Nothing would change.
Just as an aside to the thoughts above, I'd also argue the resurgence of tribalism in Western societies is likewise a product of excessive individualism. Total freedom can be quite the burden on the shoulders of those who might not even be able to chose their clothes for the day.
I'd think these people are tempted to retreat into their supposed identity so as to find a save haven brimming with the like-minded where they'll be free from their responsibility for their own life again.
And, of course, a strong desire to be something special lies dormant in all of us. But how to be something special if even the law says you're just like everyone else? Well, the West came up with the idée fixe that everyone is special. Which kind of takes the fun out of being special in the first place. And who'd admit to wanting to being something better than their peers? Only the most ambitious.
There's your ticket to the oppression olympics, is what I'm saying.
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Over here in terms of society and whats happening, I think rules are being rewritten and a deal is being set socially. When this virus struck here and the over 65 million were place in lockdown everybody was worried about jobs, money and food. Surprisingly the main corporations an even the small scale businesses continue with the salary payments, the big manufacturers diverted their productions into providing PPE and alcohol. Petroleum companies providing fuel for vehicles to shuttle essential employees and front liners. with car companies letting some of their vehicles used a shuttles.
The lower class got a government stipend and relief goods, while the middle class got nothing of that sort but got all the bills extended and pushed down the road. Also they still earn some salary from their employers. The companies that employ them get tax breaks and loans from the government to remain afloat.
This was all done voluntarily without a government mandate. To the point that the current government, which is so aggressive in bringing the big companies on their knees to fix what was seen as social injustice had a change of heart an became more negotiable... sending the company stocks to a high.
Now if this social contract could hole, I think in terms of the Philippines, it would be for the better
ph.yahoo.com
The lower class got a government stipend and relief goods, while the middle class got nothing of that sort but got all the bills extended and pushed down the road. Also they still earn some salary from their employers. The companies that employ them get tax breaks and loans from the government to remain afloat.
This was all done voluntarily without a government mandate. To the point that the current government, which is so aggressive in bringing the big companies on their knees to fix what was seen as social injustice had a change of heart an became more negotiable... sending the company stocks to a high.
Now if this social contract could hole, I think in terms of the Philippines, it would be for the better
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The media is getting paid by governments, politicians and corporations. The government is getting paid by corporations, mafia and is elected(in most places). And the scientists are paid by the government or corporations.
Why would i believe blindly any of them ? They give me no reason.
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