Politics The future of European defence strategy & manufacturing

[Telmar]

Interesting thread.

My concern when we talk about money is to invest into an uber-professional high tech white elephant project.

 

[downsizer]

Lithuania wants “to buy AMRAAMS for their NASAMS,” he stated. “Five-year wait. I talked to the Bulgarian CHOD [Chief of Defense]. They want to buy Javelins for their Strykers. Seven-year wait. I talked to some of the big allies who want to buy Patriots. 10-year wait. That needs to get fixed.”

NATO Operations Chief's Five Lessons Learned From War In Ukraine

NATO is taking note of opportunities and glaring deficiencies in its ability to wage war, some of which are harder to capitalize on than others.

www.twz.com

Go to MBDA then!

 

[Mike1976]

The people screaming the loudest for instant rearmament are the same people who are trying to turn the entire country into a protected nature reserve.

Try to mash the two together and it goes about as well as you'd expect. What a clown fest.

Uitbreidingen Defensie leiden tot milieu-dilemma's

Defensie wil nieuwe oefenterreinen openen in natuurlocaties. Het leidt tot weerstand van actiegroepen en natuurorganisaties die wijzen op de milieuschade die Defensie aanricht.

nos.nl

Defence expansions lead to environmental dilemmas

The Defence Department is actively looking for locations for new training grounds and is looking at protected nature reserves, among other things. This is leading to resistance from action groups and nature organisations. They believe that there is too little attention for the environmental damage caused by military activities.

On Tuesday, the Veluwezoom Bomvrij action group presented a petition with more than 43,000 signatures to the defence committee of the House of Representatives. They are objecting to the possible arrival of a military training ground for practicing with heavy explosives on the Terletse Heide. This is a Natura 2000 area just above Arnhem near the Veluwezoom. The petition is supported by nature organisations, municipalities and the province of Gelderland.

In addition to the Terletse Heide, the Defence Department is also looking at Lelystad and the Kollumerwaard in Friesland as possible training grounds. In December last year, five other locations were already rejected based on environmental, noise and nature requirements.

Minister of Defence Brekelmans experiences nature regulations as a limiting factor. "Putin will not stop at a Natura 2000 area in Estonia. In order to guarantee the readiness of our armed forces, Defence must be granted an exception to some European regulations."

Moonscape

But action group Veluwezoom Bomvrij fears that a military training area on the Terletse Heide will lead to the destruction of the unique nature reserve. "The planned exercises will create a moonscape," says spokesperson and ecologist Ruben Smit. "These types of heavy explosives cause ground vibrations, causing the ground to subside. In addition, the area will be fenced off, preventing animals from entering or leaving."

Wim Zwijnenburg, project leader for Humanitarian Disarmament at peace organisation PAX, also mentions noise pollution. "Both animals and people suffer from this."

PAX therefore advises Defence not to expand in the Netherlands. "It makes more sense, in the context of greater European unity, to seek cooperation in countries where there is more terrain, precisely because the Netherlands is so small."

Defence specialist Peter Wijninga calls the desire to move training grounds abroad "a typically Dutch reaction". "We do want to do more for defence, but we do not want to be bothered by it ourselves."

Wijninga agrees that other countries do indeed have more space, but according to him that does not mean that training can only take place abroad. "Then you are moving the nuisance," says Wijninga.

Kees Klein Goldewijk, university lecturer in environmental sciences at Utrecht University, states that training grounds in nature can even offer advantages. "Military training grounds actually have improved biodiversity, because they are closed to the public." This is also evident from research by Defence.

According to Wijninga, this is also because the animals get used to the presence of soldiers. "Even when training with heavy explosives."

'Apples and oranges'

Smit thinks that is too easy. "This location cannot be compared with other training areas where training takes place much less often and less intensively. That is really comparing apples and oranges."

According to Smit, it is absurd that Defence wants to tamper with the Natura 2000 regulation. "This would have consequences for all nature reserves in Europe, because no nature reserve would be safe anymore."

Smit is also in favour of training in other countries. He understands that to a certain extent it is about moving the nuisance, but he does not think that argument is entirely justified. "There are large training areas on the eastern border where we can train together that are a lot more remote. Moreover, these are less vulnerable areas."

The ecologist understands that Defence is looking carefully at the possibilities to protect the Netherlands, but he does not think that the interests are being weighed up properly. "I believe that the quality of your own living environment should not be jeopardised under the guise of the threat of war."

Which area will ultimately qualify as a military training area will become clear in the coming months. An independent party is currently investigating the environmental effects. At the end of May, Defence will announce which location is preferred, after which interested parties will have 6 weeks to object. The final decision must be made by the end of 2025.

 

[thelistener]

The people screaming the loudest for instant rearmament are the same people who are trying to turn the entire country into a protected nature reserve.

Try to mash the two together and it goes about as well as you'd expect. What a clown fest.

Uitbreidingen Defensie leiden tot milieu-dilemma's

Defensie wil nieuwe oefenterreinen openen in natuurlocaties. Het leidt tot weerstand van actiegroepen en natuurorganisaties die wijzen op de milieuschade die Defensie aanricht.

nos.nl

Have the cold war era training grounds been build over or made into nature preserves?

 

[Mike1976]

Have the cold war era training grounds been build over or made into nature preserves?

A mixture of both, same for former bases. Thanks to the EU a lot of those areas are now Natura 2000 nature reserves, meaning that besides the nature reserves themselves which can range from tiny to spanning 1/3 of a province you can't do anything even in the wide vicinity around them, this ranges from a kilometer or two to over a dozen kilometers where all kinds of activity is limited (including agricultural and industrial). The entire construction industry has been gridlocked for several years now, the electricity grid isn't capable of supporting the renewable energy sources. The previous governments prioritised green energy and ignored the fact that the grid was completely incapable of supporting the uneven production. Ideology over engineering. Improving the grid should be prioritised so after that is finished construction can resume at full pace due to reduced emissions, but instead the governments have decided to sit on their asses, lament the situation and do nothing like true civil "servants".

Good thing we're not living in a country the size of a postage stamp ...

 

[Mike1976]

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[thelistener]

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[skaw]

Wonder, how much will be lost for nothing but bureaucracy in the bottleneck called BAAINBw...

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Well, when the government really wants to solve the problem it sure can find the money.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

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€1tn spending plan for defense?

Why?

Wasn't Von Der Leyen entire narrative line, faithfully repeated by the masses, that Russia was running out of everything? They had no "war-industry"? They had to steal washing machines and kitchen appliances to get the microships for their missiles because they didn't have the technology to manufacture them themselves?
Isn't Russia a horde of mindless people armed with nothing but shovels? A country that can easily get steamrolled in a few weeks?

Why would we need to spend that much money to fight cripples?

 

[PEMM]

Russia was running out of everything? They had no "war-industry"? They had to steal washing machines and kitchen appliances to get the microships for their missiles because they didn't have the technology to manufacture them themselves?

China provides these now.

Although, I'm pretty sure those washing machines and toilets were for personal use...

 

[thelistener]

€1tn spending plan for defense?

Why?

Wasn't Von Der Leyen entire narrative line, faithfully repeated by the masses, that Russia was running out of everything? They had no "war-industry"? They had to steal washing machines and kitchen appliances to get the microships for their missiles because they didn't have the technology to manufacture them themselves?
Isn't Russia a horde of mindless people armed with nothing but shovels? A country that can easily get steamrolled in a few weeks?

Why would we need to spend that much money to fight cripples?

if you'd like a proper answer, ask it in the proper thread.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

if you'd like a proper answer, ask it in the proper thread.

Thank you, but no thank you.

 

[Hiryu2.0]

EU to exclude US, UK and Turkey from €150bn rearmament fund

Victory for France-backed ‘Buy European’ approach to defence spending

www.ft.com

Arms companies from the US, UK and Turkey will be excluded from a new €150bn EU defence funding push unless their home countries sign defence and security pacts with Brussels.

The planned fund for capitals to spend on weapons would only be open to EU defence companies and those from third countries that have signed defence agreements with the bloc, officials said on Wednesday.

It would also exclude any advanced weapons systems upon which a third country had “design authority” — restrictions on its construction or use of particular components — or control over its eventual use, the officials added.

The policy is a victory for France and other countries that have demanded a “Buy European” approach to the continent’s defence investment push, amid fears over the long-term dependability of the US as a defence partner and supplier sparked by President Donald Trump.

EU member states would not be able to spend the money on products “where there can be a control on the use or the destination of that weapon . . . It would be a real problem if equipment acquired by countries cannot be used because a third country would object,” one of the officials said.

The UK has lobbied hard to be included in the initiative, particularly given its key role in a European “coalition of the willing” aimed at bolstering the continent’s defence capabilities. UK defence companies, including BAE Systems and Babcock International, are deeply integrated into the defence industry of EU countries such as Italy and Sweden.

If third countries such as the US, UK and Turkey wanted to participate in the initiative, they would need to sign a defence and security partnership with the EU, officials said.

Talks between London and Brussels on such a pact have begun but have become embroiled in demands for a larger EU-UK agreement that would also include controversial issues such as fishing rights and migration.

The exclusion of the UK and Turkey will create major headaches for big European defence companies with close ties to producers or suppliers in those markets.

The move will cause significant consternation in Britain’s defence sector. One senior UK defence industry insider said it was a “considerable concern”, adding: “We see a huge amount of opportunity and it’s right the UK is seen as part of Europe. But if the EU — and especially France — is going to be transactional about this, it undermines the entire philosophy of a joint and unified Europe in defence and security terms.”

Previous French efforts to ringfence defence spending for EU companies only have met with stiff resistance from countries such as Germany, Italy, Sweden and the Netherlands that have close ties with non-EU defence producers.

Under the terms of the plan, EU countries would be able to spend the loans on products using components from Norway, South Korea, Japan, Albania, Moldova, North Macedonia and Ukraine, officials said.

 

[Hiryu2.0]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/dutch-parliament-calls-end-reliance-us-software-2025-03-18/

 

[PEMM]

Previous French efforts to ringfence defence spending for EU companies only have met with stiff resistance from countries such as Germany, Italy, Sweden and the Netherlands that have close ties with non-EU defence producers.

Under the terms of the plan, EU countries would be able to spend the loans on products using components from Norway, South Korea, Japan, Albania, Moldova, North Macedonia and Ukraine, officials said.

This is good as the plan is to improve own production.

These other countries will definitely get their piece of the pie from national budgets.

 

[LimaCharles]

Interesting thread.

 

[Mike1976]

Dutch reserve army must be much larger, compulsory military service no longer unthinkable

according to two military unions who have spoken to the defence secretary. On Monday a letter will be sent to parliament laying out the plans for increased recruitment.

- 200,000 total force, active, civilian and reservist. Previous plans were based on 100,000 total. The current force level is ~75,000;
- The Swedish model, making everyone who turns 17 fill out a questionnaire to gauge motivation. The most motivated are invited for a trial period. Tests have shown over 70% retention rate;
- If the voluntary part of the model doesn't produce enough recruits additional people would be called up, no longer voluntarily.

Nederlands reservistenleger moet veel groter, opkomstplicht niet meer ondenkbaar

Inmiddels mikt het kabinet op 200.000 mensen voor defensie, een verdubbeling van de ambitie. Onorthodoxe maatregelen worden daarvoor niet uitgesloten.

nos.nl

 

[Mike1976]

White paper for European defence - Readiness 2030:

https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/document/download/30b50d2c-49aa-4250-9ca6-27a0347cf009_en?filename=White%20Paper.pdf

Future of European defence

White paper on the future of European defence sets out investment needs to deliver EU defence capabilities to secure Europe’s peace. Find out more.

commission.europa.eu

 

[Ivan le Fou]

EU to exclude US, UK and Turkey from €150bn rearmament fund

Victory for France-backed ‘Buy European’ approach to defence spending

www.ft.com

Arms companies from the US, UK and Turkey will be excluded from a new €150bn EU defence funding push unless their home countries sign defence and security pacts with Brussels.

The planned fund for capitals to spend on weapons would only be open to EU defence companies and those from third countries that have signed defence agreements with the bloc, officials said on Wednesday.

It would also exclude any advanced weapons systems upon which a third country had “design authority” — restrictions on its construction or use of particular components — or control over its eventual use, the officials added.

The policy is a victory for France and other countries that have demanded a “Buy European” approach to the continent’s defence investment push, amid fears over the long-term dependability of the US as a defence partner and supplier sparked by President Donald Trump.

EU member states would not be able to spend the money on products “where there can be a control on the use or the destination of that weapon . . . It would be a real problem if equipment acquired by countries cannot be used because a third country would object,” one of the officials said.

The UK has lobbied hard to be included in the initiative, particularly given its key role in a European “coalition of the willing” aimed at bolstering the continent’s defence capabilities. UK defence companies, including BAE Systems and Babcock International, are deeply integrated into the defence industry of EU countries such as Italy and Sweden.

If third countries such as the US, UK and Turkey wanted to participate in the initiative, they would need to sign a defence and security partnership with the EU, officials said.

Talks between London and Brussels on such a pact have begun but have become embroiled in demands for a larger EU-UK agreement that would also include controversial issues such as fishing rights and migration.

The exclusion of the UK and Turkey will create major headaches for big European defence companies with close ties to producers or suppliers in those markets.

The move will cause significant consternation in Britain’s defence sector. One senior UK defence industry insider said it was a “considerable concern”, adding: “We see a huge amount of opportunity and it’s right the UK is seen as part of Europe. But if the EU — and especially France — is going to be transactional about this, it undermines the entire philosophy of a joint and unified Europe in defence and security terms.”

Previous French efforts to ringfence defence spending for EU companies only have met with stiff resistance from countries such as Germany, Italy, Sweden and the Netherlands that have close ties with non-EU defence producers.

Under the terms of the plan, EU countries would be able to spend the loans on products using components from Norway, South Korea, Japan, Albania, Moldova, North Macedonia and Ukraine, officials said.

The plan is to re-invigorate the EU and its MIC.

Turkey is not part of the EU and, hopefully, never will.
The US, obviously, isn't part of the EU.
The UK got through the whole Brexit to get out of the EU, can't have the cake and eat it.


So yeah, US, UK and Turkey are out.