Politics The future of European defence strategy & manufacturing

[thelistener]

Lithuania wants “to buy AMRAAMS for their NASAMS,” he stated. “Five-year wait. I talked to the Bulgarian CHOD [Chief of Defense]. They want to buy Javelins for their Strykers. Seven-year wait. I talked to some of the big allies who want to buy Patriots. 10-year wait. That needs to get fixed.”

NATO Operations Chief's Five Lessons Learned From War In Ukraine

NATO is taking note of opportunities and glaring deficiencies in its ability to wage war, some of which are harder to capitalize on than others.

www.twz.com

 

[Mike1976]

Are we then seeing these increases defense spending bills in Netherlands?

Also that is just one problem. Another even bigger one is getting people engaged in the defense. We should start seeing some plans from countries with smallish professional militaries, be it via conscription, voluntary service, militias, college lessons etc. to bring up the needed manpower.



Why send these guys to these meetings without a mandate to negotiate.

Read what I posted. Parliament wants to retain control over it's own money. All but two small parties are in favour of increased defence spending, but not without being informed of the terms, not without a vote and not by signing a blank cheque for anyone.



Because that is not how a democracy works. Signing on the dotted line without being told in advance what you're signing for are the actions of morons and public servants. After all they are spending other people's money, the easiest thing in the world.

If people want a form of government where one person can sideline everyone else in regards to massive expenditures without accounting oversight I would suggest they move to russia.

 

[Mike1976]

Lithuania wants “to buy AMRAAMS for their NASAMS,” he stated. “Five-year wait. I talked to the Bulgarian CHOD [Chief of Defense]. They want to buy Javelins for their Strykers. Seven-year wait. I talked to some of the big allies who want to buy Patriots. 10-year wait. That needs to get fixed.”

NATO Operations Chief's Five Lessons Learned From War In Ukraine

NATO is taking note of opportunities and glaring deficiencies in its ability to wage war, some of which are harder to capitalize on than others.

www.twz.com

Same as the Dutch PULS purchase. US Himars was pretty much a given until they were told that deliveries would be around 2029-30. Israel could deliver the first systems within three months and complete the order in two years.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

And that's the issue with the defense industry in the West.

We offer lots of very fancy and shiny things, but it takes an ridiculously long time to produce them.
When the products are delivered on way too many occasions (as in: more than one) there are crippling defects (remember the naval version of the NH90 that couldn't stand sea water?), out of specs elements or incompatibilities.

Or "unexpected delays" which make the product outdated and irrelevant to the buyer.

 

[PEMM]

Read what I posted. Parliament wants to retain control over it's own money. All but two small parties are in favour of increased defence spending, but not without being informed of the terms, not without a vote and not by signing a blank cheque for anyone.

Because that is not how a democracy works. Signing on the dotted line without being told in advance what you're signing for are the actions of morons and public servants. After all they are spending other people's money, the easiest thing in the world.

If people want a form of government where one person can sideline everyone else in regards to massive expenditures without accounting oversight I would suggest they move to russia.

Fair enough. I hope we will hear more soon. It does sound very interesting that the PM would not inform the parliament at all during the negotiations.

Won't the parliament still have to vote to accept the scheme in the end. Or how does this system work?

 

[Mike1976]

Fair enough. I hope we will hear more soon. It does sound very interesting that the PM would not inform the parliament at all during the negotiations.

Won't the parliament still have to vote to accept the scheme in the end. Or how does this system work?

Just like the referendum on the European Constitution and one on Ukraine the PM will do as he pleases. The coalition can enter a vote of no confidence against it's own PM in order to boot him out of office, but in terms of stability it wouldn't look good for the coalition and whoever were to replace him would just go ahead with the plan anyway.

 

[primer]

Lithuania wants “to buy AMRAAMS for their NASAMS,” he stated. “Five-year wait. I talked to the Bulgarian CHOD [Chief of Defense]. They want to buy Javelins for their Strykers. Seven-year wait. I talked to some of the big allies who want to buy Patriots. 10-year wait. That needs to get fixed.”

NATO Operations Chief's Five Lessons Learned From War In Ukraine

NATO is taking note of opportunities and glaring deficiencies in its ability to wage war, some of which are harder to capitalize on than others.

www.twz.com

Have to wonder how much the defence suppliers are worried about efficient production when we hear that China has the factory chain for cruise missile production while our supposedly intercompetitive suppliers are working on an individual unit production basis. Because of ordering uncertainty or what?

 

[Ivan le Fou]

Have to wonder how much the defence suppliers are worried about efficient production when we hear that China has the factory chain for cruise missile production while our supposedly intercompetitive suppliers are working on an individual unit production basis. Because of ordering uncertainty or what?

They know orders will keep on coming, perhaps not in high numbers, but they will keep on coming.
They also don't care much who they are selling to, business is business and gold is gold.

Contrary to defence suppliers in Russia and China, the Europeans ones seem to lack that so called "patriotic fiber" that is so present in Russia and China. Both countries spend a lot of time and financial investment in their armies, showing them off at any given occasion, coddling it, etc... there is a entire socio-cultural image and prestige to maintain, for it helps projecting their "presence" abroad.
In other words they are industrial necessities.

Europe however does not work like that. The army is something that got shunned for decades, and the defense sector turned into another service provider industry like any other car manufacturer or refrigerator supplier.

 

[skaw]

yea...like "You have reached us outside of our business hours. Please call again monday morning 9am."

I think the defense sector could ramp up pretty good if they want to. Which means if the politics really want to.

 

[PEMM]

college lessons

I wrote this randomly but it got me thinking. One of the main complaints of conscription is that it takes year out of your studies.

So to go around that would be to have basic training 2-3 months prior to starting the studies. Then continue the training on each study brake (I think we had 2 months in summer and one in winter) and some weekends. This might fit modern world better as the basic training would shock the kids to get into shape.

 

[Ivan le Fou]

I wrote this randomly but it got me thinking. One of the main complaints of conscription is that it takes year out of your studies.

So to go around that would be to have basic training 2-3 months prior to starting the studies. Then continue the training on each study brake (I think we had 2 months in summer and one in winter) and some weekends. This might fit modern world better as the basic training would shock the kids to get into shape.

Or integrating this into the regular scholar system.

 

[Mike1976]

Portuguese Defense Minister scratches F35 as future Fighter for the Air Force

Nuno Melo afasta compra de F-35 aos EUA por causa de Trump. “O mundo já mudou”

Ministro da Defesa e líder do CDS diz que o seu partido está ao lado de Montenegro “de corpo inteiro” no caso Spinumviva e espera que não haja interferências da Justiça durante a campanha eleitoral.

www.publico.pt

This made me think of something. What if the EU were to buy a whole bunch of Gripens and Rafales, leased them out to smaller countries that struggle to maintain their own Airforce and concentrated the facilities for more extensive maintenance in a few locations.

That should lead to a better price since the EU is buying in bulk and the countries don't have to pay to have the full technical support infrastructure in place that doesn't get used all that often due to the low number of air frames.

Pilot training could be centralized too to save money.

 

[PEMM]

Or integrating this into the regular scholar system.

There is a benefit of having to be there for a full time. Not to mention all the equipment, having that in college? As well with all training areas. Also you have those who don't go to college, for them regular service would be the best fit and these both would happen in same premises.

 

[Mike1976]

It would be much cheaper and quicker to buy Rafales with ASMPs than do all yourself.

EU countries should lump together a few monies to get Rafales 240 ASMPs and 4 nuclear subs from France.

Maybe also have a carrier fleet with France so about 4 large new carriers with ASMPs on board.

If the US comes back to the path of sanity the F35s can also be put on carriers with B61s one will get through to Putlers bunker just in case. And fry Moscow and St.Petersburg.

This is the path to go rest is Kindergarten.

The problem with for example Poland buying/renting French (nuclear) deterrence weapons is that the producer still remains their veto power. What this war has shown is that in order to have freedom of policy you need to produce it yourself so you don't have to rely on the political whims of the Switzerlands of this world.

 

[Mike1976]

I wrote this randomly but it got me thinking. One of the main complaints of conscription is that it takes year out of your studies.

So to go around that would be to have basic training 2-3 months prior to starting the studies. Then continue the training on each study brake (I think we had 2 months in summer and one in winter) and some weekends. This might fit modern world better as the basic training would shock the kids to get into shape.

Or integrating this into the regular scholar system.

A gap year is par for the course these days where people go pissing about in Australia or east Asia like hobos.

"Congratulations, you now get to do that in fatigues!"

 

[PEMM]

A gap year is par for the course these days where people go pissing about in Australia or east Asia like hobos.

"Congratulations, you now get to do that in fatigues!"

And unlike gap year, you usually don't end up with std's and debt.

 

[Chazman]

And unlike gap year, you usually don't end up with std's and debt.

Debt? Don't mom and dad pay for a gap year backpacking through Europe? Man, I wish I could take a gap year. It'd be on the beach, not going from hostel to hostel.

 

[Picanha]

The problem with for example Poland buying/renting French (nuclear) deterrence weapons is that the producer still remains their veto power. What this war has shown is that in order to have freedom of policy you need to produce it yourself so you don't have to rely on the political whims of the Switzerlands of this world.

That must of course be managed by buying it and getting full control otherwise its not feasible. I propose this as the fastest way to get nuclear arms which is only possible if France gives control over those separately bought and maintained weapons.

The rest EU can share them (and costs) and the carriers and subs for example.

 

[PEMM]

Debt? Don't mom and dad pay for a gap year backpacking through Europe? Man, I wish I could take a gap year. It'd be on the beach, not going from hostel to hostel.

I don't know, as our gap year is like Mike said.

Except for girls, they do have that option. Wasn't a thing for anyone I know, though.

 

[Picanha]

Debt? Don't mom and dad pay for a gap year backpacking through Europe? Man, I wish I could take a gap year. It'd be on the beach, not going from hostel to hostel.

Depends on how rich your parents are. I knew a girl who spent a year in a large apartment in Sidney paid by daddy....no cheap hostels..