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Just to nail the fallacy of the ID proponents argumentation

Prove that I.D is a reality. Obviously propronents of this belief can't. Obviously because how mere humans within the limits of their human technologies and knowledge could prove that a superiorly intelligent entity (name it as you want) with above human powers and outside humanity capabilities exists . The paradigm is impossible in any way you bend it.

Ok, because they are unable to prove it in a positive way (experimentation and observation) they try it through a negative way by attacking science theories.
The fallacy lays in the fact that a negative "proof" negating a given point never proves that your initial hypothesis is correct.

Saying that hypothesis B is wrong doesn't make hypothesis A true, because hypothesis C, D, E exists.

To explain how life appeared on Eath, saying that abiogenesis can't work never proves that I.D. is true. Others hypotheses like panspermia (life bricks travelling in space and seeding planets including Earth) or more wacky ideas like life coming through dimensional rifts or brought in by Aliens/Atlanteans under elementary bricks or created by quantic resonance are still possible as long as they are not discarded by experimentation/modelisation/simulation.
 
Just to nail the fallacy of the ID proponents argumentation

Prove that I.D is a reality. Obviously propronents of this belief can't. Obviously because how mere humans within the limits of their human technologies and knowledge could prove that a superiorly intelligent entity (name it as you want) with above human powers and outside humanity capabilities exists . The paradigm is impossible in any way you bend it.

Ok, because they are unable to prove it in a positive way (experimentation and observation) they try it through a negative way by attacking science theories.
The fallacy lays in the fact that a negative "proof" negating a given point never proves that your initial hypothesis is correct.

Saying that hypothesis B is wrong doesn't make hypothesis A true, because hypothesis C, D, E exists.

To explain how life appeared on Eath, saying that abiogenesis can't work never proves that I.D. is true. Others hypotheses like panspermia (life bricks travelling in space and seeding planets including Earth) or more wacky ideas like life coming through dimensional rifts or brought in by Aliens/Atlanteans under elementary bricks or created by quantic resonance are still possible as long as they are not discarded by experimentation/modelisation/simulation.
Evidences of Intelligent Design are explained here


Evidence for Design in Physics and Cosmology
The fine-tuning of the laws of physics and chemistry to allow for advanced life is an example of extremely high levels of CSI in nature. The laws of the universe are complex because they are highly unlikely. Cosmologists have calculated the odds of a life-friendly universe appearing by chance are less than one part in 1010^123. That’s ten raised to a power of 10 with 123 zeros after it! The laws of the universe are specified in that they match the narrow band of parameters required for the existence of advanced life. As an atheist cosmologist Fred Hoyle observed, “[a] common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” The universe itself shows strong evidence of having been designed. To find out more, read Jay Richards, “Is There Merit for ID in Cosmology, Physics, and Astronomy?” and Stephen Meyer, “Evidence of Design in Physics and Biology.”

Evidence for Design in the Origin of Life
Bernd-Olaf Kuppers has pointed out in his book Information and the Origin of Lifethat “[t]he problem of the origin of life is clearly basically equivalent to the problem of the origin of biological information.” As noted previously, intelligent design begins with the observation that intelligent agents generate large quantities of complex and specified information (CSI). Studies of the cell reveal vast quantities of biochemical information stored in our DNA in the sequence of nucleotides. No physical or chemical law dictates the order of the nucleotide bases in our DNA, and the sequences are highly improbable and complex. Moreover, the coding regions of DNA exhibit sequential arrangements of bases that are necessary to produce functional proteins. In other words, they are highly specified with respect to the independent requirements of protein function and protein synthesis. Thus, as nearly all molecular biologists now recognize, the coding regions of DNA possess a high “information content”—where “information content” in a biological context means precisely “complexity and specificity.” Even atheist zoologist Richard Dawkins concedes that “biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” Atheists like Dawkins believe that unguided natural processes did all the “designing” but intelligent design theorist Stephen C. Meyer notes, “in all cases where we know the causal origin of ‘high information content,’ experience has shown that intelligent design played a causal role.” To find out more, read Stephen Meyer, “DNA and Other Designs” or “DNA and the Origin of Life.”

Evidence for Design in the Development of Biological Complexity
The scientific method is commonly described as a four-step process involving observations, hypothesis, experiments, and conclusion. In this regard, ID uses the scientific method to claim that many features of life are designed — not just the information in DNA. After starting with the observation that intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI), design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information. One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be tested and discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures through genetic knockout experiments to determine if they require all of their parts to function. When experimental work uncovers irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.

This method has been used to detect irreducible complexity in a variety of biochemical systems such as the bacterial flagellum. Moreover, the more we discover about the cell, the more we are learning that it functions like a miniature factory, replete with motors, powerhouses, garbage disposals, guarded gates, transportation corridors, and most importantly, CPUs. The central information processing machinery of the cell runs on a language-based code composed of irreducibly complex circuits and machines: The myriad enzymes used in the process that converts the genetic information in DNA into proteins are themselves created by the process that converts DNA into proteins. Many fundamental biochemical systems won’t function unless their basic machinery is intact, so how does such complexity evolve via a “blind” and “undirected” Darwinian process of numerous, successive, slight modifications? Since cellular language requires an author, and microbiological machines require an engineer, and genetically encoded programs require a programmer, increasing numbers of scientists feel the best explanation is intelligent design. To find out more, read Michael Behe, “Molecular Machines: Experimental Support for the Design Inference,” or Stephen Meyer, “The Cambrian Explosion: Biology’s Big Bang.”
 
Evidences of Intelligent Design are explained here


Evidence for Design in Physics and Cosmology
The fine-tuning of the laws of physics and chemistry to allow for advanced life is an example of extremely high levels of CSI in nature. The laws of the universe are complex because they are highly unlikely. Cosmologists have calculated the odds of a life-friendly universe appearing by chance are less than one part in 1010^123. That’s ten raised to a power of 10 with 123 zeros after it! The laws of the universe are specified in that they match the narrow band of parameters required for the existence of advanced life. As an atheist cosmologist Fred Hoyle observed, “[a] common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” The universe itself shows strong evidence of having been designed. To find out more, read Jay Richards, “Is There Merit for ID in Cosmology, Physics, and Astronomy?” and Stephen Meyer, “Evidence of Design in Physics and Biology.”

Evidence for Design in the Origin of Life
Bernd-Olaf Kuppers has pointed out in his book Information and the Origin of Lifethat “[t]he problem of the origin of life is clearly basically equivalent to the problem of the origin of biological information.” As noted previously, intelligent design begins with the observation that intelligent agents generate large quantities of complex and specified information (CSI). Studies of the cell reveal vast quantities of biochemical information stored in our DNA in the sequence of nucleotides. No physical or chemical law dictates the order of the nucleotide bases in our DNA, and the sequences are highly improbable and complex. Moreover, the coding regions of DNA exhibit sequential arrangements of bases that are necessary to produce functional proteins. In other words, they are highly specified with respect to the independent requirements of protein function and protein synthesis. Thus, as nearly all molecular biologists now recognize, the coding regions of DNA possess a high “information content”—where “information content” in a biological context means precisely “complexity and specificity.” Even atheist zoologist Richard Dawkins concedes that “iology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” Atheists like Dawkins believe that unguided natural processes did all the “designing” but intelligent design theorist Stephen C. Meyer notes, “in all cases where we know the causal origin of ‘high information content,’ experience has shown that intelligent design played a causal role.” To find out more, read Stephen Meyer, “DNA and Other Designs” or “DNA and the Origin of Life.”

Evidence for Design in the Development of Biological Complexity
The scientific method is commonly described as a four-step process involving observations, hypothesis, experiments, and conclusion. In this regard, ID uses the scientific method to claim that many features of life are designed — not just the information in DNA. After starting with the observation that intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI), design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information. One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be tested and discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures through genetic knockout experiments to determine if they require all of their parts to function. When experimental work uncovers irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.

This method has been used to detect irreducible complexity in a variety of biochemical systems such as the bacterial flagellum. Moreover, the more we discover about the cell, the more we are learning that it functions like a miniature factory, replete with motors, powerhouses, garbage disposals, guarded gates, transportation corridors, and most importantly, CPUs. The central information processing machinery of the cell runs on a language-based code composed of irreducibly complex circuits and machines: The myriad enzymes used in the process that converts the genetic information in DNA into proteins are themselves created by the process that converts DNA into proteins. Many fundamental biochemical systems won’t function unless their basic machinery is intact, so how does such complexity evolve via a “blind” and “undirected” Darwinian process of numerous, successive, slight modifications? Since cellular language requires an author, and microbiological machines require an engineer, and genetically encoded programs require a programmer, increasing numbers of scientists feel the best explanation is intelligent design. To find out more, read Michael Behe, “Molecular Machines: Experimental Support for the Design Inference,” or Stephen Meyer, “The Cambrian Explosion: Biology’s Big Bang.”
Those are no evidences at all
They are conjectures and interpretations
Evidences would be observation/experimentation and this is not
Oh and to page you, the few experimental "proofs" (like in this assessment : One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be tested and discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures through genetic knockout experiments to determine if they require all of their parts to function. When experimental work uncovers irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.) are done in controled laboratory environment, not in primordial earth nor in Big Bang conditions so according to your layer of acceptation their value is zilch.
Evidences would be to observe a Intelligent Designer; Good luck with that

PS : this one is Gold : The myriad enzymes used in the process that converts the genetic information in DNA into proteins are themselves created by the process that converts DNA into proteins
Egg and chicken fallacy much ?
 
Those are no evidences at all
They are conjectures and interpretations
Evidences would be observation/experimentation and this is not
Oh and to page you, the few experimental "proofs" (like in this assessment : One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be tested and discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures through genetic knockout experiments to determine if they require all of their parts to function. When experimental work uncovers irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.) are done in controled laboratory environment, not in primordial earth nor in Big Bang conditions so according to your layer of acceptation their value is zilch.
Evidences would be to observe a Intelligent Designer; Good luck with that

PS : this one is Gold : The myriad enzymes used in the process that converts the genetic information in DNA into proteins are themselves created by the process that converts DNA into proteins
Egg and chicken fallacy much ?
And the mother of all conjectures is nothing becomes everything (i.e. big bang, multi-verse/string theory and other crap theories) as claimed by evolutionists like yourself, and of course you will dodge this simple fact claiming that this is not related to evolution, I totally understand why...because you do not have the answer.

Dude, testing or experimenting irreducible complexity does not require primordial earth environment conditions to prove its validity. The origin of life through abiogenesis (as claimed by evolutionists) on the other hand does require primordial earth environment conditions to prove it without any doubt.

Well, there is written historical evidence that people observed and interact with the Intelligent Designer...but of course you would not believe it and I totally understand.
 
And the mother of all conjectures is nothing becomes everything (i.e. big bang, multi-verse/string theory and other crap theories) as claimed by evolutionists like yourself, and of course you will dodge this simple fact claiming that this is not related to evolution, I totally understand why...because you do not have the answer.

Dude, testing or experimenting irreducible complexity does not require primordial earth environment conditions to prove its validity. The origin of life through abiogenesis (as claimed by evolutionists) on the other hand does require primordial earth environment conditions to prove it without any doubt.

Well, there is written historical evidence that people observed and interact with the Intelligent Designer...but of course you would not believe it and I totally understand.
Again Big Bang is belonging to astrophysics, not "evolutionnism". That was already discussed and you are still mixing apples and lemons ....

Second point is that nothing becomes everything is a fallacy. Big Bang is not about nothing. But about an hyper condensate of matter. At the very limit, you can ask where this matter comes from ....

Third point : testing irreductible complexity cannot be done in an impartial way because it is done through computer modelization (so exposed to software/programming bias). Or the lab conditions, the same you are always criticizing. Or the existence of an I.Designer that i am still waiting to be shown.

Fourth point : Please point me some ......Hint : the Bible is not an historical proof and certainly not a science demonstration of anything......
 
I was going to say Bible but how about the Quran?
 
I was going to say Bible but how about the Quran?
Bible (which one furthermore ? Greek translation, latin vulgate translation, Luther Bible, Book of Mormon, Jehovah witnesses version .....)
Quran
Torah

None are accurate depictions of History
Except of course if you want to believe litteraly

that the firmament is a solid roof over the Earth
that a given prophet was able to reach the sky from a rock, riding a horse
that (given the various genealogy timelines) life expectancy from early human turned around 130-160 years
that blowing a horn could topple walls
or that Angels anger could turn people into salt statues

and i am leaving aside external and internal contradictions for each books (like insects depicted with 4 legs which is scientifically unaccurate or timeline of Genesis contradicting itself between chapters)

Now if you take in consideration symbolism, much of the incredible/miraculous/divine/magic/ScyFy things could be explained
For example salting the soil of a town was the ultimate curse and punishment of a city in Ancient Times
What if 7 blows of the horn of Jericho is symbolicaly representing the time of siege of the town (be it 7 days, weeks or months)

Don't forget also everything that was lost in translation between Jewishs texts (the origin), the various version of the Bible and the Quran
The Talmud (not sure if not another jewish religious text) speaks about a prophet born from a young wife
which was translated into a virgin in latter bible ....
 
George Weigel, Biographer of John Paul II, Takes Note of David Gelernter’s Darwin Apostasy

Some very interesting people were jarred by David Gelernter’s apostasy from Darwinism. The Yale computer scientist described in The Claremont Review of Books how his thoughts on evolution have evolved, influenced by Discovery Institute’s Stephen Meyer and David Berlinski. Now the distinguished Catholic intellectual and writer George Weigel, official English-language biographer of Pope John Paul II, weighs in on Gelernter.

Dismissing ID Is “Unscientific”

Weigel was not previously known as a Darwin skeptic or as sympathetic to intelligent design. At First Things, he takes note of Gelernter’s essay as “a potential tool in the New Evangelization.” From “Getting Beyond Darwin”:
Bishop Robert Barron and others working hard to evangelize the “Nones” — young adults without religious conviction — tell us that a major obstacle to a None embracing Christianity is the cultural assumption that Science Explains Everything. And if science explains it all, who needs God, revelation, Christ, or the Church? To be even more specific: If Darwin and the Darwinian theory of evolution explain the origins of us (and everything else), why bother with Genesis 1–3 and Colossians 1:15–20 (much less Augustine’s “Thou hast made us for Thee and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee”)?
Weigel summarizes David Gelernter’s points, and concludes:
Gelernter is intrigued by “intelligent design” approaches to these evolutionary conundra but also suggests that, “as a theory,” intelligent design “would seem to have a long way to go.” But to dismiss intelligent design out of hand — to brand it piety masquerading as science — is, well, unscientific. The fossil record and molecular biology now suggest that Darwinian answers to the Big Questions constitute the real fundamentalism: a materialistic fideism that, however shaky in dealing with the facts, is nonetheless deeply entrenched in 21st-century imaginations. Thus, Gelernter asks whether today’s scientists will display Darwin’s own courage in risking cultural disdain by upsetting intellectual apple carts.
See also Rachel Alexander at The Stream, “Renowned Yale Computer Science Prof Leaves Darwinism,” who points readers to the great hourlong interview, by Peter Robinson of Stanford’s Hoover Institution, talking with Gelernter, Meyer, and Berlinski. That interview has been watched by close to 700,000 people.
....

 
Marcos Eberlin: Unguided Origin of Life “Sold to Us,” but Its Assumptions Are “Insane”

On a new episode of ID the Future, distinguished Brazilian organic chemist Marcos Eberlin talks with host Andrew McDiarmid about chemical evolution and the origin of life, reflecting on comments by Rice University synthetic organic chemist James Tour in Science Uprising, Episode 5, and on Eberlin’s own Nobel laureate-endorsed book Foresight: How the Chemistry of Life Reveals Planning and Purpose. The idea of an unguided origin of the first life has been “sold to us,” he says, but its assumptions are “insane … many, many times impossible.” Download the podcast or listen to it here.

Dr. Eberlin illustrates from three essential cell features: the cell membrane, protein folding, and molecular chaperones. We’re “further away than ever” from making life in the lab, he says, and it’s time now to “surrender to the data,” which as he argues, points to the works of foresight and planning in the origin of the first life.

 
Oh look another quote from another wannabee scientist that pomotes ID propaganda outside his field of knowledge.
Let it put it bluntly : that a organic chemist dares to discuus biological features is as fun as if a car tinkerer was discussing the viability of a superjumbo.
Both are scientists (or mechanic specialist in my example) but not really in the same field.
Trying to give a falsehood taste of science to ID is just dishonest.
And a fail again.
 
No offence, but you're in the wrong here. You posted an inverse argument from authority, as it were, based on a fallacy. Someone's specialization in one field doesn't necessarily indicate their ignorance in another – especially when they're disciplines whose contiguity lends itself to lateral entering.
 
Well, bottom line is...no one really knows. Any "God" (spiritual not religious) that we could understand would be too small to do whatever he/she did/does whatever. I don't understand or know how the Universe started, when it started, where it begins or where it ends. Nothing discussed here is mutually exclusive. Many people don't believe in a conception of God for a simple reason - they don't have to and they don't believe a politicized religious God who allows suffering and pain and won't answer selfish prayers. They're quite happy playing God themselves and live under the delusion that they are somehow in control of all of this. Oh they believe in luck, their horoscope, their palm reader or some form of higher power - usually money or material things. The Buddhists got it right. Materialism and Spiritual growth are to a large extent, incompatible. Ironically, people of deep spiritual faith, real, trusting faith, are stronger, happier and have a great deal more peace in their lives than those without.
 
No offence, but you're in the wrong here. You posted an inverse argument from authority, as it were, based on a fallacy. Someone's specialization in one field doesn't necessarily indicate their ignorance in another – especially when they're disciplines whose contiguity lends itself to lateral entering.
That' s true.
However i d reverse the argument of fallacy.
It is not because somebody works in one given science field that he is an expert in the other fields and has the credibility to unbuild theories or postulate in said other fields.

That's a common angle of attack of pseudosciences to use not in field "specialists" to give a taste of credibility for people who dont know the differences between the fields.
That said, what is brought in by the chemist about prot folding for example is going against all what is known for years by prot experts.
Once again when we are talking about ID proponents
 
Ironically, people of deep spiritual faith, real, trusting faith, are stronger, happier and have a great deal more peace in their lives than those without.
Do you have proof of this? i live in a very spiritual and faithful country and i would say that the only things stopping some of these guys is their fear of their god. I have more belief in humankind than some imagination or hallucination, but then again I'm a pilot, therefor... am God.
 
Do you have proof of this? i live in a very spiritual and faithful country and i would say that the only things stopping some of these guys is their fear of their god. I have more belief in humankind than some imagination or hallucination, but then again I'm a pilot, therefor... am God.
No proof, just my experience. Interesting this "fear of God". My conception of a God is not something to be feared. To each his own.
 
Interesting debate...

No proof, just my experience. Interesting this "fear of God". My conception of a God is not something to be feared. To each his own.

Would agree a bit. I’m all for religion freedom just as long as it doesn’t interfere onto other people’s lives but for the three major monotheistic ones, they tend to a bit, some more than others, depend on your country or state really.
 
Would agree a bit. I’m all for religion freedom just as long as it doesn’t interfere onto other people’s lives but for the three major monotheistic ones, they tend to a bit, some more than others, depend on your country or state really.
Agree, i do not care whatever your beliefs are as long as you can keep it in your thoughts or private. Soon as you use it to impact the lives of other by basing the laws of the lands or implementation with your religious bias, then it becomes problem.
 
Well, bottom line is...no one really knows. Any "God" (spiritual not religious) that we could understand would be too small to do whatever he/she did/does whatever. I don't understand or know how the Universe started, when it started, where it begins or where it ends. Nothing discussed here is mutually exclusive. Many people don't believe in a conception of God for a simple reason - they don't have to and they don't believe a politicized religious God who allows suffering and pain and won't answer selfish prayers. They're quite happy playing God themselves and live under the delusion that they are somehow in control of all of this. Oh they believe in luck, their horoscope, their palm reader or some form of higher power - usually money or material things. The Buddhists got it right. Materialism and Spiritual growth are to a large extent, incompatible. Ironically, people of deep spiritual faith, real, trusting faith, are stronger, happier and have a great deal more peace in their lives than those without.
That's true, no one really knows in absolute. I am not against the idea that a "God" could be at the origin of the Big Bang. Why not....
What we know however is that several sides of sciences are attacked by biggoted people that want to convince others that they know
That's the point of this thread....
Religion is a personal matter in my opinion. Trying to convince others that your God is truth and the only One is showing at best a large insecurity for his own beliefs and at worse a totalitarian state of mind with consequences that are well known because they are plastered through our whole human history.
 
Agree, i do not care whatever your beliefs are as long as you can keep it in your thoughts or private. Soon as you use it to impact the lives of other by basing the laws of the lands or implementation with your religious bias, then it becomes problem.
Actually, a lot of First Century Christian theologians consider the concepts of a punishing and rewarding God heresy. Cliff notes: His greatest gift to us is life and freedom. How we use that free will is up to us. But there’s no punishment for it. One school of thought.
 
Would have been even more perfect if they kept all their thoughts to themselves.
 
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