# PTSD, Is It Contagious or Just Politically Correct ?



## 03Fox2/1 (Dec 10, 2006)

disregard, 03Fox2/1


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## Hollis (Dec 10, 2006)

Fox, my guess is that PTSD as with most things is not either 0% or 100%.  There are degrees of PTSD.  From my understanding, it is a very normal reaction to a very abnormal situation.  It enables the mind to cope with the immediate job at hand, other words to survive.  That way in a more secure environment the mind can deal with it then.  

Problem, that I have been told, is not PTSD, it is ignoring it.  DROS greatly effected RVN Vets ability to cope with PTSD.  In WWII, a lot of the troops went over together and came back together, that in itself allow them to talk to each other about horrific events which help to deal with the patterning effects of PTSD.  In RV a lot of Vets went over by themselves and came home by themselves.  People at Home had no clue about RVN, and there was no natural healing of PTSD as with the WWII Vets.  It exacerbated the problem.

It is my experience the PTSD is not well known.  The cultural view is very much in error.  Sort of like the Hollyweird version of the RVN Vet as a psychotic derange murdering machine.  When in real life RVN Vets rate above average as good to excellent citizens. Not saying some are not dealing with demons, but they are not doing it as Hollyweird would want most to believe.


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## Bombardier (Dec 10, 2006)

03Fox2/1 said:


> I have no axe to grind with those who suffer from PTSD.


 
Me niether



03Fox2/1 said:


> I believe the definition of PTSD has become so diluted and become so politically correct, that almost anyone who serves in the military now qualifies as a viable candidate for this disorder.


 
I agree 100%

I take you back to WWI, now I know that there were cases of severe shell shock and I assume that cases of acute PTSD were evident but not yet diagnosed.. unfortunately. How many of the troops attempted to claim some disabling illness as a result of the trauma they suffered?, I doubt many at all, but that doesnt mean it wasnt there (I hasten to add).

Maybe the Political correctness that 03Fox2/1 speaks of is true?, maybe that to deal with the horrible reality of war it becomes PC to tell all those around you that you are now suffering because it would be assumed that you are some kind of monster if it did not affect you. 

I have demons from war and from the job I do and I have considered addressing this with others, but never have, why? because in my case it is no more severe than that of a member of the public witnessing a serous car crash or a parent suffering the loss of a young child. You see we can all claim PTSD but do we do it justifiably??.

To claim PTSD when really all your problem revolves around is a tragic incident which has occured during your time in service, is to me totally unacceptable and is relatively easy to overcome without claiming the matle of PTSD.

Again I hope my ramblings have made some sense to someone.

I will finish by saying that anybody truly suffering, this is not directed at you, but those that it does refer to please give your head a shake and get on with your life, dont jump the PTSD train because it does not help those are ar really suffering..


Semper Fidelis
Per Mare Per Terram
UBIQUE

sal;


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## 03Fox2/1 (Dec 10, 2006)

disregard, 03Fox2/1


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## Bombardier (Dec 10, 2006)

> Hate the war, don't hate the warrior


 
Best statement I have ever heard mate 

UBIQUE
Per Mare Per Terram
Semper Fi


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## Hollis (Dec 10, 2006)

I am not sure what is being said here. IN the US the VA can rate a problem anywheres from 0% disabling to 100% permanent and total. Obvious with some others, such as a % for unemployablity. Rocky would probably be the best person to comment on this. 

A person can have the tip of his finger lost in the service, I am not sure if he file a claim if anything would happen or the VA would just say he gets 0% for a tip of figer loss. Meaning the VA will take care of that finger if anything problem arise form the lost of the tip of the figer. 0% means there is no monetary award. 

Also the VA will take care of veterans who have non-service connected injuries. Service connection usually have priority over non service connection. Meaning a Vet looses the tip of a finger in a wood working accident at home would get basically the same care. 

A person can get 0% for PTSD (Not sure if the VA would do this) and for all practical purpose it has no advantage or benefits as a Vet with out any claim. The VA offers to Vets and Families adjust counseling/work counseling for adjustment to civilian life to any Vet. 

I read where English Vets are finally able to get compensation for injuries for non-hostile action. As far as I know the US VA does not differentiate, a person who is 100% gets the same award whether the disability was from hostilities or "work related", say a traffic accident in the states.


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## 03Fox2/1 (Dec 11, 2006)

disregard, 03Fox2/1


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## Hollis (Dec 11, 2006)

03Fox2/1 said:


> I believe my message and my feelings about the subject of my post to be crystal clear. Perhaps there is very little we have in common and perhaps there is much you and I see differently. From my experiences and my perception, my post reflects not only my knowledge, but also my emotions associated with my journey, started long ago in Vietnam. I speak only for myself, but I represent many of similar nature.


 
I was actually responding to Bombardier. I am not sure what prompted a seeming hostile reply. 

I am not a clinician or counselor. I did get involved in Pointman Ministries about ten years ago. They offer a Lay counseling service to help Vet but with a religious flavor some like Rocky does (with out a religious base). I have not been involved with them for over 6 years. 

My understanding come from training sessions on counseling, knowing clinicians and councilors. I am not a authority on this issue but stated what I was told. 
It seems to me what society says about PTSD is not what it is about. It is not a "war" only problem.  Let me be very clear, I AM NOT A EXPERT on the topic, so I can be way off base. 

I am not sure what all we do share in common, probably more than less in common. One aspect of counseling and from other life experience, Is I learn a very different approach to dealing with people. Regardless of what another does to me, what matters to me is how I react/respond. Abuse is never justified. 

Our current conflict in Iraq is about a culture of lawlessness, based on abuse and continuing abuse. A individual can be judge, jury and executioner and the victims family can and is expected to revenge any wrong doing by doing the same. Hopefully the Iraq people will succeed in developing a lawful society. I know Iraq is not RVN and type of combat is very different and not in comparison to the amount of intensity. Example 1968, we lost over 16,000 Americans in RVN (may be off a little). Iraq is no where near that. 


1st Gulf war, I heard other RVN vets bemoaning the "welcome home" that those warrior received. I think one of the reason the Gulf War Soldiers received a good welcome home was because of RVN Vets, insuring the mistakes of RVN not be continued. Those that bemoaned the home comings felt differently. Yes the 100 Hr Gulf War 1 was light compared to RVN, but why should we not welcome them home? Two wrongs never make a right. 

I have a very close friend in 5th Group SF, I am greatly honored to have him a friend and admire his commitment and duty to the US people. I have other friends who are currently deployed, some are National Guard. The treatment RVN vets received during the RVN conflict and after was deplorable, but that does not say we should not correct those wrongs and NOT help Today's Soldiers and New Vets to be better treated. 

Regardless if PTSD is PC or what ever, I think if we can improve the quality of treatment the VA offers to our service men and women I agree. IMHO, those decession should be in the hands of people who know more than both of us.


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## Hollis (Dec 11, 2006)

This link is pretty good, it is from the VA on PTSD.

http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/facts/general/fs_effects.html

The other aspect that maybe missing, is that PTSD does not always travel alone it can travel with;

Survival guilt,
Substance abuse
Physical abuse to oneself or others
Low self esteem
Latent morning
Etc.....

Hopefully Rocky will Add or correct any errors of mine.


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## 03Fox2/1 (Dec 11, 2006)

disregard, 03Fox2/1


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## 03Fox2/1 (Jul 24, 2009)

I do regret deleting my own thread, when in a moment of weakness and overwhelming panic, I decided that I had revealed too much about my demons and my own battle with PTSD and survivors guilt. I see now that this was a cowardly action and since this latest spammer-hacker has chosen to visit this thread, I feel nothing but sorrow that I took such an easy way out. I feel nothing but contempt for people like this latest spammer and it is people like him that convinced me to delete my own words that mean so much to me, then and now.
Semper Fi


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## Drone_pilot (Jul 24, 2009)

> I feel nothing but contempt for people like this latest spammer and it is people like him that convinced me to delete my own words that mean so much to me, then and now.



he's gone and banned mate.


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## Frisco-Kid (Jul 25, 2009)

Scott, I'm sorry that the likes of this pus pocket has prompted you to delete your heart-felt words. It's a big enough shame that so many of our posts have been lost beyond recovery due to hackers compromising this site without us taking them out ourselves. Please resist the urge to do this in the future, my friend. You can't let these gobs of spit get to you personally. They're just random, and Bombardier and Droney will chop them off at the knees as soon as they're detected.


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## Bombardier (Jul 25, 2009)

> They're just random, and Bombardier and Droney will chop them off at the knees as soon as they're detected.


 
Damn Right we will


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## Hollis (Jul 25, 2009)

Frisco-Kid said:


> Scott, I'm sorry that the likes of this pus pocket has prompted you to delete your heart-felt words. It's a big enough shame that so many of our posts have been lost beyond recovery due to hackers compromising this site without us taking them out ourselves. Please resist the urge to do this in the future, my friend. You can't let these gobs of spit get to you personally. They're just random, and Bombardier and Droney will chop them off at the knees as soon as they're detected.





Well said.   Thanks for the post.


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## 03Fox2/1 (Jul 25, 2009)

Tom, 
Thank you for your considerate words.
They are like a warm poncho liner on a cold dark night, or that first smoke when dawn finally breaks the cloak of darkness and you finally can see that enemy soldier that you feared all night, really is just a clump of bamboo.
Much appreciated by me and myself, former and present.
As I said, I do regret deleting my contributions on many of the threads here.
At the time, in my frame of mind, it seemed the right thing to do. Still, after my exposure to so many wannabes and fakes and confrontational know-it-all's on so many sites, I often wonder if it is all worth it. My initial attempt at posting was to break my silence and try to publicly renounce all of the many false impressions about those of us that seemed to have fought this war, so long ago. Despite the recent deluge of books written by anyone remotely associated with VietNam, I still feel that we chosen few have been relegated to the pages of history with much misinformation and a lot of manipulation of history. So much recent empty fanfare can not erase my memory of what I consider a great injustice to those men that fell in battle. I still remember the many years of indifference and neglect that many of us suffered through and I have not forgotten nor have I forgave my countrymen for the terrible way we were treated. It has taken me many long years to realize that I am bitter, something I always denied before. I try to speak for others and at the same time help myself, something I have always been reticent to do. I don't like bringing attention to myself and I feel that sometimes I become selfish with my thoughts and memories from VietNam. I try to speak about my personal experiences and yet remain removed and distant from the story. As you know, this is impossible and pointless anyway. I admire your recall of so many facts... I am better at relating how it felt to go on your first patrol instead of the coordinates and specific details. How it felt to see your first platoon leader killed in front of you, make numerous mistakes myself, any of which should have gotten me killed, and still survive that patrol and many more, all for the glory of Corps and Country. Exactly where I was and how many men were involved and the accurate dates and time of day.... I'll leave that to others or after-action-reports. I feel war emotionally more than I remember dates and locations. After all is said and done, in all wars, courage and honor are present as well as cowardice and hate. I still want people to know the difference between those of us that fought honorably and those that became no better than the enemy.  Some say wars are fought by the strong to protect the weak. I say some wars are fought by the innocent to protect the guilty.
Semper Fi


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## Advisor (Jul 28, 2009)

Fox
Understand where you're coming from, bro. PTSD? I don't know. We were all changed in some way by our experience. And, we all deal with it in different ways. Is that PTSD..the change? Who knows. I do know that I changed...some for the good & some for the bad. After all these years, I have come to understand that the bad changes just built on a lot of crap that happened to me as a kid. Knowing it doesn't stop the bad feelings, the anger, the guilt, the whatever. It just helps to understand it. After almost 40 years, I have become fairly comfortable with myself. I can tell you this...I don't give a shite about what anyone's idea of a VN vet is. I know who I am and that is all that counts. If others don't agree with that, sod 'em. One thing that came out of a lot of the nasty crap we did face when we came home is my determination that no SOB will ever do that to another generation of vets. Criticize the war ( I do) but keep your mouth of the youngsters fighting it. 
I agree that wars are fought by the innocent to protect the guilty and also that wars are started by old men and fought by the young.


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## Hollis (Jul 29, 2009)

Advisor said:


> One thing that came out of a lot of the nasty crap we did face when we came home is my determination that no SOB will ever do that to another generation of vets. Criticize the war ( I do) but keep your mouth of the youngsters fighting it.




I think, that is probably the most important part.   The other part I would add, is that what adds to the confusion of PTSD is our collective understanding of it.   I think most people are get mixed information and really don't know what it is.  The Hollyweird, psychopathic vets is definitely not it.  The general media, Vet gone criminal is definitely not it.  There are some good books and pamphlets (from the VA and Vet service organizations)  that can point a person in the right direction.  

If anything, PTSD says that a person is normal person, who experienced a very abnormal traumatic situation.  It is the coping with that situation that causes problems.   Our natural tendencies are usually wrong.   Burying it along with some other coping mechanisms only makes it worse.  

There are byproducts from not dealing with PTSD, most cause problems, either interpersonal, anger, self medication, etc.


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## Advisor (Jul 29, 2009)

*Soldier from the War Returning*: The Greatest Generation's Troubled Homecoming from World *War* II (9780618773688): Thomas Childers

This whole PTSD thing is not new. Would recommend reading this book. Story of 3 vets & the postwar life they had. The author's father was one.
Reading this explains some things about that generation that I never did understand.


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## Hollis (Jul 30, 2009)

There is another book written for the family of the Vet.   _Recovering from the War, _by Patience Mason.  Her husband wrote _Chicken Hawk._  The diagnosis was not completely or usuable till about 1985, yet as Advisor wrote, it goes back in time.  I would ad it goes back to he beginning of our existence.


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## PanzerBob (Jul 31, 2009)

If any part of your soul shared here helps even one person I personally figure it's worth it. 

I never saw the deleted posts or the Thudf##ker who was spamming this thread.  I agree with what I have seen here.  PTSD (a term I've come dislike) runs at so many different degrees, and is not as well understood by the Medicos as one may think.  I certainly have great respect for those handle their "demons" so to speak.  However, I have the same respect for those not so fortunate. 

          In dealing with the mind nothing is ever as clear cut as a broken limb or a bullet lodged in your chest.  At one point I know I would have preferred the latter.  I've seen many who needed help and were scared to seek it, mainly because of our military culture. Those same men were part of reason it took me so long to get help.  I belittled my own demons because theirs seemed at the time the make mine look trivial.  It wasn't until I was moved from a mission critical position that I came apart.  AND seeing some of those soldiers’ lives and their families spin out of control from a distance once I was removed from that environment, I was lucky enough to understand that would be me and mine if I didn’t do something. 

          I can't say the treatment process was the best and in hindsight I now know there was a huge experimental element to it all.  However, despite it causing my career to end after 22 years service, the good outweighs the bad.  I have to a large degree come to understand my demons, I still have my Family and most days my sanity.  My wife also has a better understanding of when and where she can help.......................I think I may have babbled off topic. 

          I believe these types of problems have always been with us since "formed" Armies have been fielded. Furthermore, I believe that in the age we live in we have seen an increase in it's occurrence due to the lack of clear cut missions and enemies.  Added to this the modern soldier is no longer in the dark on the issues of the world and is taught and expected to think.  This combined with the shock of combat, the shock the firepower that can be delivered, plus the evil they will witness brought down on the innocent, this will not go away. (Note there are likely other points I’ve missed).

One last point I find it interesting it always rears it's ugly head after the event or events happens, never during. As long you are mission focussed you're fine.  Once out of there is when it all comes down.

There is phrase I've heard used by men returning from warfare and it is "I have seen the Elephant." Frankly until I saw "the Elephant" I never understood the full impact of the statement.  They had seen and something well out of the normalcy of their lives, something never to be forgotten even if they tried.  

IMHO Bob out sal;


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## 03Fox2/1 (Aug 1, 2009)

PB, 
I agree that sharing or baring your soul can be cleansing but it also can be terribly frightening to someone who in the process also bares his insecurities to the world. I'm not sure if doing this is a sign of strength or a sign of weakness. Therein lies the dilemma. I know going it alone is usually not a formula for success but I also know that group therapy did not and does not work for me. Perhaps some of us were meant to not only suffer alone but also to suffer in silence, something I used to be very good at until I opened up this can of worms when I decided that speaking for others was how I would actually address my own demons. Silent suffering has a dignity about it that vocal critics will never understand. I still feel like the best way I can describe what I'm trying to communicate to others, about myself, is by talking about my buddies that can no longer speak for themselves. Perhaps I am being selfish, because they certainly didn't ask me to represent them. But I feel very strongly that too many in this modern world of blame and unaccountability have forgotten the sacrifice of so many nameless heroes that reside on the Wall in Washington, D.C.. VietNam, that was my war and the only war I lay claim to, but all wars have more in common than not. To be sure there are many more from all past wars, including one day in the far off future, those men and women from the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that also will have their legacy altered or ignored by those that disagree with the merits of that particular war, instead of the deeds of those forgotten warriors who fought it. Politics has a way of not only getting us into wars but also of tainting a war with the hollow and bitter taste of what politicians are so good at, deception and lying to the people so that finally the entire war seems corrupted and distasteful, forgetting the many honorable acts by those who put themselves in harms way for their nation. Much like what 1st Lt. William Calley and  Pfc. Robert Garwood did to dishonor my legacy in my war by their criminal and traitorous acts. Another burden that we must carry for eternity.
Semper Fi


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## 03Fox2/1 (Aug 1, 2009)

Advisor,
 I agree that this PTSD thing is not new. Possibly the modern terminology and the recent documented frequency has increased the awareness outside the military, but I believe all of those that see combat action, no matter what war or when in history, have always wrestled with the definition and exposure to it and the necessary steps to deal with it, professionally and personally. When I enlisted back in 1968, the mindset was to tough it out, not admit there was a problem and most assuredly, never ask for help. Anything less was to bring, in my case, shame on yourself and dishonor to your Corps and outfit. You could and probably would be labeled a malcontent or a trouble maker or even a coward, certainly someone that did not rate a promotion or more responsibility as a leader of Marines. Tradition taught you to always put the honor of the USMC first, even at personal expense. Tradition and peer pressure and the rank structure and chain of command dictated strict obedience to this. Now I'm not complaining or criticizing this, only making a statement of the circumstances I found myself in as someone that enlisted with what I thought was my eyes wide open and unaware that I was actually looking through rose colored glasses with a very limited field of vision. This mindset of tradition and honor are some of those traits that set us apart and it does influence you to put the mission first and the man next to you ahead of yourself. There has always been this personal sacrifice that befalls those who see and do and endure the hellish aspects of war. Those who do the killing and those who become wounded, body, mind or spirit, all have a heavy price to pay and unfortunately the effects linger long after the smoke clears and the dead are buried. Time marches on and people are forgotten but the incidents and memories live on as if they happened yesterday. I know that you medics and corpsman saw the very worst aspects of war and I know that you paid a very heavy price for being there in our time of need.
Semper Fi


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