Discussion Thread: 2008 Russo-Georgian war

[Gordus]

Save at any cost . Documentary with english subtitles
Author of this documentary Alexsander Sladkov was with General Khrulev's vanguard unit. Filmed, probably, the most important hours of this war.

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Special thanks to Penny the Penguin (themess.net) and ult (lostarmour.info) for help with translation

It is incredible to see how those docus that are trying to portray the Georgian military as murderers who just attacked for the fun of it, with no background, provocations and attacks preceeding a conflict whatsoever ..... still exist and people are still sharing those.
That made up "Operation Clear Field" is literaly implying it was attempted genocide .... really ? couldn't come up with something more believable ?
That said, it is still OK for being a Russian PR docu. Could be worse. A lot worse.

Wow. I wonder what the folks on Georgian side will have to say about this. Going back to the first Chechen War, he was great and OBJECTIVE war correspondent. Right now, I occasionally stumble on his reports from occupied parts of Donbas, and he just crudely makes stuff up for propaganda purposes. Not even trying too hard.

Well what are we to say @berkut76 . Russian PR is globaly acclaimed and infamous. No matter the level of hypocricy, if you find yourself to be their opponent, you are basicaly a baby killer. But when they see the need to wipe out half a region and its people to prevent sessessionism, its a "just fight against terrorism". 2008 was a "genocide", but their supported Sukhumi massacre in 1993 was a necessary evil. Go figure. Trying to reason there is as futile as trying to convince them that territorial expansion is a an evil act and regressive practice.

The Russian side has one, and so far to my knowledeg only one, somewhat researched and, credible and objective piece of analysis on the war ( as much as can be expected from the Russian side ), which is also recognized as such, and government funded ( I say gov funded because their initial articles were horrible PR of the worst kind ), and it is called "Tanks of August"
http://www.cast.ru/files/The_Tanks_of_August_sm_eng.pdf

Some of the accounts in that work disagree with most others from Georgian, and international studies' versions of certain events, like for instance what exactly transpired on 9 August, which was a near operational disaster for the Russian army. But overall it's by FAR, like a great lenght, more objective and realistic than other work of so called "analysts" from Russia.

What can usualy be observed is that when then the enemy is successful, it is because the Russians were poorly equipped or badly outnumbered ( 18.000 Georgians - I had to chuckle at that part. That's almost twice the amount of Georgian soldiers that took part in the entire operation and twice the amount of what the GAF was able to field as combat effective. Only a small portion was involved in that specific clash ) It were elements of three full battalions that moved into the town and supported MIA troops attacking the column at the entrance. I know this, because of a vet who was directly involved in that firefight as a MIA trooper who gave me an account, which I helped me greatly in my research. Because it added things up.

In conclusion, the Russian side really likes to downplay that whole event. In that docu, it cuts just about where it would start to become really dramatic for them. No mention of how much that reckless manouver actualy cost them.

Another thing that made me chuckle is the claim, that the Georgians canceled their attack and fell back because they were in awe at how resiliant and incredibly curageous the Russians were .... even though they had them encircled and were about to completly wipe them out in just moments .... Our SF disagrees there. They kept knocking out whatever they saw, and as much as they were able to.
The Georgians fell back because the Russians responded with heavy artillery supression and CAS. That one aircraft, that got downed afterwards, managed to hit 4th brigade field HQ and disrupted communication. That combined with Russian reinforcements, beat the Georgian assault back. To save what they could, the Russian battalions split into platoons and dispersed. Both sides do agree tho, that it was one hell of a fight. Engagements at just some feet away is no joke. That actually happened.

All that said, while Khrulyov's is sometimes being mocked for "running from the field" ( which he obv didn't, he got wounded and evaced ) those people actualy respect the fact the Russians kept advancing despite running into heavy enemy fire. That is perceived as admirable.

Btw, Pavel Tsitsianov was a Georgian not Russian ....
A lot of commanders of Imperial Russia were Georgians. So that's that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Imperial_Russian_Army_generals

 

[DTA]

Gordus, Do you know what your problem ?
You gone full butthurt from video with zero knoledge about war, you cannot even attribute the photo , you just took random photos and cannot properly describe them (about photos a bit later)
now about your comments

It is incredible to see how those docus that are trying to portray the Georgian military as murderers who just attacked for the fun of it, with no background, provocations and attacks preceeding a conflict whatsoever ..... still exist and people are still sharing those.
That made up "Operation Clear Field" is literaly implying it was attempted genocide .... really ? couldn't come up with something more believable ?
That said, it is still OK for being a Russian PR docu. Could be worse. A lot worse.

yes, you mean background was full retard first georgian president Zviad Gamsakhurdia ,just his quotes

"Soon I will be in Tskhinvali with 10 thousand of my falcons, and we will see what kind of meeting the Tskhinvali public will arrange for them. We'll turn the neck, especially because of weaker opponents, as the Ossetians, it will be easy to curb. Half of Georgia will be with us, and there will be seen who wins, whose blood shed more"

""The Ossetian people are garbage that must be disposed of through the Roki tunnel. We will go on Ossetia and the Ossetians may either submit and become Georgians, or, if they are so fond of Russian, go from Georgia to Russia»"

and many others. His presidency were one of ignition point of back in 90 years .

And i see no problem, if Russia gave independency to Georgia for free after SU fell, why Georgia cannot give the the same independency to people who don't want to live with you.

Btw, Pavel Tsitsianov was a Georgian not Russian ....
A lot of commanders of Imperial Russia were Georgians. So that's that.

Problem of small countries, they everytime tried to build their state around 1 nationlity , they subscribe any people for their nationality , building their indentification. It's contrary to big countries like USA, Russia or China , which fighting with domestic nationalism , because nationalistic views , propaganda about supremacy of one nation will everytime lead to wars and separation.
I bet Pavel Tsitianov like Petr Bagration did'nt fell themself as kartli, they were Russian Imperial generals, for empires like for today big countries it doesn't matter. More, nationalism and national identification of people on some territries began only on second half of XIX century. And you as German citizen must know very well about this part of history .

In conclusion, the Russian side really likes to downplay that whole event. In that docu, it cuts just about where it would start to become really dramatic for them. No mention of how much that reckless manouver actualy cost them

As about critical moment, really critical was only georgian attack on Khrulev group after one group already leave to city. If you think about 135 motor rifle rigement fights in city, it was hard but not critical. The main troops already passed roki tunnel, 2nd front opened in Abkhazia. War was lost by georgians at 9 august , second half of day, at time when 135 regiment could fortified in city. IMHO, at was last change for georgians, 1st change were lost(the main) when they cannot secure roki tunnel . They can blame for it only 693th regiment

Please tell, about second georgian attempt to take the city,tell about small group from 135 motor rifle regiment defended in city against 4th and 2nd georgian brigades in full encirliment. By the way about photos,Remember you photo "T-72b3" ?

it's T-72BM in russian peacekeeprs base, during fights in city , group of solders from 135 motor rifle regiment with tank from 141 separate tank battalion made a breakthrough to peacekeepers , tank for few hours supported peacekeepers by fire , run out of ammonution, tank was lightly damaged , before withdrawal tank was burned by crew. Tank commander, Lieutenant Alexander Popov was wounded in the leg.

Destroyed Georgian T-72Sim1

It's T-72AB , tactical number 110. on the road Khetagurovo - Tkhinval . near village Tbet. Do you remember tanks on road before Khrulev's group entering the city in docu? it's the same

If you need T-72SIM , trophey in Kubinka

at the end , let's stop the national indentification demagogue and concetrate on battlefield

 

[Talvisota]

Tanks of August

I actually somewhat found that book acurate (mostly), also Moscow Defence Breif had pretty insteresting studies about the war

Were interesting books about conflict publshed in Georgia?

not sure about books, i have not heared about any.

18.000 Georgians

thats funny, but lets do maths
Georgian army was 12.000 big in 2008, about 2000 were stationed in Iraq, and 2 combat brigades did not took part in conflict activly.
so, 4000-5000 at the 8 august, many were mobilised later but did not took part in combat

Russian BMPs, what killed them is not pretty clear, some say Georgian SIM1 and some say Georgian Fagot ATGM team

 

[Talvisota]

why Georgia cannot give the the same independency to people who don't want to live with you.

Problem here is they want indepence on OUR LAND.
thats the problem, nothing more.

It's T-72AB , tactical number 110. on the road Khetagurovo - Tkhinval . near village Tbet

Its 72SIM1, juding from configuration of ERA

 

[Gordus]

Gordus, Do you know what your problem ?You gone full butthurt

Right .... ^^

It's especialy a funny thing to say after such an emotional and irritated reply.

yes, you mean background was full retard first georgian president Zviad Gamsakhurdia ,just his quotes

"Soon I will be in Tskhinvali with 10 thousand of my falcons, and we will see what kind of meeting the Tskhinvali public will arrange for them. We'll turn the neck, especially because of weaker opponents, as the Ossetians, it will be easy to curb. Half of Georgia will be with us, and there will be seen who wins, whose blood shed more"

""The Ossetian people are garbage that must be disposed of through the Roki tunnel. We will go on Ossetia and the Ossetians may either submit and become Georgians, or, if they are so fond of Russian, go from Georgia to Russia»"

and many others. His presidency were one of ignition point of back in 90 years .

And i see no problem, if Russia gave independency to Georgia for free after SU fell, why Georgia cannot give the the same independency to people who don't want to live with you.

wow DTA, now I see what kind of pleasant fellow you are, and what the entire purpose of your posting here is. Well sure, why not. I'ts the beauty of democracy to express one's opinion.

But do you know what your problem is ?

I don't see how the nationalist banter of a guy who got disposed after just one year of presidency in 1993 exactly because of such rhetoric, has anything to do with how you portray the Georgian military in 2008. maybe, for a moment, also consider how the Russian military was perceived by the Chechens, or maybe by us Georgians when they supported the massacre and mass expulsion of our people from both occupied regions ? I'm just saying. You are trying to make conflicts one sided, and it is painfuly apparent, and the hypocricy in it is laughable. Try to remain decent.

Because you are basicaly like: "Sure, we murdered or helped murder like thousands of innocent people ..... but ..... but you remember what that guy of yours said ? he said this and that. Evil !"

Problem of small countries, they everytime tried to build their state around 1 nationlity , they subscribe any people for their nationality , building their indentification. It's contrary to big countries like USA, Russia or China , which fighting with domestic nationalism , because nationalistic views , propaganda about supremacy of one nation will everytime lead to wars and separation.
I bet Pavel Tsitianov like Petr Bagration did'nt fell themself as kartli, they were Russian Imperial generals, for empires like for today big countries it doesn't matter. More, nationalism and national identification of people on some territries began only on second half of XIX century. And you as German citizen must know very well about this part of history .

Brilliant. Yes, it's the small countries' fault that they don't want to appease Russian expansionist policies. Because Russia is so known for being absolutly tolerant to minorities lol and I take it, Russia has absolutly no nationalistic views, propaganda and likes the idea of supremacy of one nation right ? ^^

As about critical moment, really critical was only georgian attack on Khrulev group after one group already leave to city. If you think about 135 motor rifle rigement fights in city, it was hard but not critical. The main troops already passed roki tunnel, 2nd front opened in Abkhazia. War was lost by georgians at 9 august , second half of day, at time when 135 regiment could fortified in city. IMHO, at was last change for georgians, 1st change were lost(the main) when they cannot secure roki tunnel . They can blame for it only 693th regiment

.... and what exactly is your point ?

Please tell, about second georgian attempt to take the city,tell about small group from 135 motor rifle regiment defended in city against 4th and 2nd georgian brigades in full encirliment. By the way about photos,Remember you photo "T-72b3" ?
View attachment 145926

Why not all 5 brigades and also half the nation while you're at it ?

Russians love good war stories, but most of them have nothing in common with reality.

it's T-72BM in russian peacekeeprs base, during fights in city , group of solders from 135 motor rifle regiment with tank from 141 separate tank battalion made a breakthrough to peacekeepers , tank for few hours supported peacekeepers by fire , run out of ammonution, tank was lightly damaged , before withdrawal tank was burned by crew. Tank commander, Lieutenant Alexander Popov was wounded in the leg.

.... again, what is your point ? you say I don't even get my desciptions right. BM is not a correct designation. The correct designation is T-72B3

It's T-72AB , tactical number 110. on the road Khetagurovo - Tkhinval . near village Tbet. Do you remember tanks on road before Khrulev's group entering the city in docu? it's the same

Nope, the correct designation is T-72Sim1.

at the end , let's stop the national indentification demagogue and concetrate on battlefield

lol - be my guest then, and return to decent conversation.

 

[Bombardier]

Yes lets see more discussion about the war and less of the political, I know it must be difficult but we all know where things end up if we move off topic. Lets also remember this is a photo thread soooooo we should be commenting on the photos content right?, I have enjoyed this thread so far and would hate to see it collapse into obscurity

 

[Gordus]

Yes lets see more discussion about the war and less of the political, I know it must be difficult but we all know where things end up if we move off topic. Lets also remember this is a photo thread soooooo we should be commenting on the photos content right?, I have enjoyed this thread so far and would hate to see it collapse into obscurity

Sure thing Bombardier. But if ppl post bs like that, others should be allowed to respond. It is only fair .... and well, it was sadly expected.

 

[Bombardier]

That is true mate, it wasn't a criticism of you or DTA, I understand fully that we will all disagree from time to time and we will attempt to convince one another of what we think is right. In fact I was only just thinking that you both dealt with it very well, you provided references etc and that's good, it did deteriorate slightly though.

It is an emotive subject and we should keep our emotions in check

 

[Gordus]

That is true mate, it wasn't a criticism of you or DTA, I understand fully that we will all disagree from time to time and we will attempt to convince one another of what we think is right. In fact I was only just thinking that you both dealt with it very well, you provided references etc and that's good, it did deteriorate slightly though.

It is an emotive subject and we should keep our emotions in check

Fair enough. It is just that you can't expect me to take people who call names and insist on propaganda as their base source of education, too seriously. ToS is an actual credible and professional Russian military analysis that for the most part agrees with many of the Georgian accounts, statement and views on the conflict. Videos like those DTA is sharing, and its nothing personal, he can do whatever he likes, serve only one purpose and while it actualy isn't as overbloated PR as others I still won't stand for any type of bs that is claimed. From neither side. I dismiss bs from Russian as well as the Georgian side, and I really don't get how a neutral stance like that is not favoured in general. Well I get the reasons, but still. Consider it please.

 

[Gordus]

Thats why i hate our previous government, they never realised their mistakes
Our commanders did not destroy that equipment cause they were scared to do that.

But I wonder who had the genius idea to place ammo and weapon bunkers in the immediate vicinity and also inside the conflict zones. Not only that, but the content of said bunkers is incredibly weird. Like the Russians found a bunker full with just M-40 sniper rifles iirc. Why ?

 

[berkut76]

Unfortunately, most if not all of the captured Georgian equipment was deployed to Donbas. The first Ukrainian choppers that were shot down in the conflict were blonw out of the sky by the Polish PZR Grom Manpads from former Georgian stocks.

 

[Bombardier]

But I wonder who had the genius idea to place ammo and weapon bunkers in the immediate vicinity and also inside the conflict zones

Agreed they should have been in a safer rear echelon

Unfortunately, most if not all of the captured Georgian equipment was deployed to Donbas.

This is a tragedy of war and bad leadership, weapons and munitions captured will always be sent elsewhere in the battlefield or in this case the theater of conflict.

Who was it coined the phrase " Lions Led by Donkeys"

The origin of the phrase pre-dates the First World War. Plutarch attributed to Chabrias the saying that "an army of deer commanded by a lion is more to be feared than an army of lions commanded by a deer". An ancient Arabian proverb says "An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep". During the Crimean War a letter was reportedly sent home by a British soldier quoting a Russian officer who had said that British soldiers were "lions commanded by donkeys". This was immediately after the failure to storm the fortress of Sevastopol which, if true, would take the saying back to 1854–5. The phrase is quoted in Anna Stoddart's 1906 book 'The Life of Isabella Bird' in the scene where Isabella, en route for America in 1854, passes a troopship taking the Scot's Greys out to Balaclava.

 

[Gordus]

Unfortunately, most if not all of the captured Georgian equipment was deployed to Donbas. The first Ukrainian choppers that were shot down in the conflict were blonw out of the sky by the Polish PZR Grom Manpads from former Georgian stocks.

Sorry to hear that. That's really unfortunate.

But it also shows how effective manpads can be. I think one or two kills were acredited to manpad units in 2008 and about a dozen planes were damaged if I'm not mistaken and some barely made it back home. Georgians used hunter teams on quad bikes.

Against helicopters, they are very deadly.

 

[berkut76]

Sorry to hear that. That's really unfortunate.

But it also shows how effective manpads can be. I think one or two kills were acredited to manpad units in 2008 and about a dozen planes were damaged if I'm not mistaken and some barely made it back home. Georgians used hunter teams on quad bikes.

Against helicopters, they are very deadly.

It's murky story at the moment. One recon plane was sure brought down by 9K333 Verba for sure. As for other aircraft, right now the evidence is pointing to Russian Air Force rather then MANPADs or SAMs.

 

[Gordus]

It's murky story at the moment. One recon plane was sure brought down by 9K333 Verba for sure. As for other aircraft, right now the evidence is pointing to Russian Air Force rather then MANPADs or SAMs.

there is evidence of Russian airforce downing Ukrainian aircraft ?

 

[berkut76]

there is evidence of Russian airforce downing Ukrainian aircraft ?

I'll post in Ukrainian thread

 

[NebrHogger]

This is a very educational topic!!

 

[berkut76]

At the time, I even read that in Russian sources that South Osetians turned tail and ran. Then the official line changed that they were forced to withdrew due to indiscriminate shelling of Tskinval by the Georgian artillery and MLRS units.

 

[berkut76]

Chechens employed by the Russian military.

Vostok battalion led by Sulim Yamadayev whose clan was engaged in a brutal Chechen's throne fight with Kadyrov clan. He was assassinated in Emirates a few months later, and is brother was killed in Moscow.

 

[Gordus]

At the time, I even read that in Russian sources that South Osetians turned tail and ran.

Well I didn't want to put it like that, but essentialy, that's what they did. I don't blame them. They were hit hard. Georgian artillery conducted strikes on predesignated military targets in Tskhinvali itself and surrounding villages, all determined based on UAV reconnaissance days and hours before. It probably shook their morale and it was maybe also a smart thing to do. Kokoity went with his personal detail and their best troops to the Russian base in Java, the only place the GAF wouldn't just attack without consideration. That force remained in the Russian rear echelon for much of the war.

The actual fighting was done by volunteers in Tskhinvali and some paramilitary forces that stayed behind. General Barankevich, the separatist 'MOD' took full responsibility over the entire defence and resistance in the town. He reportedly knocked out a Georgian tank with an RPG. Most of the dozen or so Georgian T-72s that were destroyed were ambushed by RPG teams.
If anyone of them deserves credit, its the ones who remained in town and the volunteers who fought.

I think the only clash that involved their professional troops was at the village Kvaysa, where a fortified platoon repelled an attack by a special police squad trying to move in. Georgians suffered several wounded and withdrew. Another assault was not commenced. Georgian presence was limited in that area so both sides resorted to sporadic mortar exchange.